Should I call?

[PKKFW]

Ok, first hand I've posted so go gently on me!

No HEM reads because I'm trying to improve my live game by only playing one table at a time and not using the HUD, just my memory for everything.

However, Villian had open raised from the button every single time bar twice over about 1.5 hours of play. In other situations I would class him as moderately tight and very aggressive.

I'm a pretty straight up TAG right now. I've folded to his raises most times, called twice and raised only once. HEM leak buster says one of my leaks is folding my BB to steals too much so that should give you an idea of how tight I would appear.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (7 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($3.28)
CO ($12.56)
Button ($10.11)
SB ($9.12)
Hero (BB) ($11.41)
UTG ($9.68)
MP1 ($11.23)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, J
4 folds, Button bets $0.30, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1, Button calls $0.70

Ok, here I figure QJs is worth a raise to a constant button stealer. When he calls I'm putting him on any pocket pair, A8s+, A10o+ and KJs+

Flop: ($2.05) A, 9, 10 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.40, Button calls $1.40

Damn that Ace! But I represent after my PFR and with the OESD I have outs. When he calls I'm thinking his range now becomes a weak A, flush draw and possibly OESD. Not sure if he has the odds to call with the FD or OESD though? I discount AK, AQ and trips as I think he is aggressive enough to raise with any of those, specially with the 2 diamonds on board.

Turn: ($4.85) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $2.40, Button raises to $7.71 (All-In)

I hit my straight but with 3 diamonds on board it's pretty much my worst nightmare. Not sure the bet was a good idea, maybe check calling the turn and river would have been better but I think this guy would have shoved on one or the other anyway.

I'm now thinking he could have A with Kd and is making a move, A10 and is protecting against me having a diamond and hoping I don't have two of them, Q with Jd has hit straight and has OESFD or QJd has the nuts and I'm screwed. 87d is a remote possibility but I'm not sure even he would be aggressive enough to call preflop and flop and then to make this move with 3 diamonds and a possible straight out there on the turn. I really can't think of any other hands he would have gone to the turn with and then made this move.

So I'm ahead of 3 of his hands, tied with the fourth and way behind on one.

Thoughts?

[Shotglass]

There's a lot of better players on here that may disagree with me but this is the way I'd play it:

Pre: I'd just flat. I understand that he's raised everything, but we want to keep his range pretty wide and by 3 betting we're asking him to tighten up a bit.

Flop: C/C if the odds are right. Give him a chance to bluff with the air in his range.

Turn: c/r to 3x his bet or lead out with a psb.

As played, check out this thread: http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ll-173396.html

[supa]

Call turn and expect to see the flush some of the time.

[PKKFW]

There's a lot of better players on here that may disagree with me but this is the way I'd play it:

Pre: I'd just flat. I understand that he's raised everything, but we want to keep his range pretty wide and by 3 betting we're asking him to tighten up a bit.

My thinking here is by raising I help to define his hand a bit if he calls. If I just call he could have anything and then I really wont know where I'm at after the flop. I don't think I'm raising or even calling often enough to make him tighten up so I'm not so worried about that. Plus with QJ I'd be happy to just take his steal and end the hand there to be honest as it's not the best hand in the world to be going to a flop with.

Flop: C/C if the odds are right. Give him a chance to bluff with the air in his range.

I thought about it but figured again with the A on the board it was a good chance for me to represent with my TAG image. Also, him being so aggressive I figured there wasn't much chance of him giving me the right odds to call with my draw so a bet was the better option. If he had re-raised here and I didn't have the odds to call I probably would have folded and been done with the hand.

Turn: c/r to 3x his bet or lead out with a psb.

Yeah I was very undecided here and I think maybe the c/r or psb would have been the better option. Tbh, I had hoped my 1/2 psb would represent a made flush that didn't want to completely force him off the hand.

As played, check out this thread: http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ll-173396.html

Thanks for the link, I will read it when I get home from work.

A couple of questions though, are people using things like pokerstove during a hand to put ranges in and decide on equity etc or is it more for analysis after the fact?

I've read alot about equity, fold equity, + and - EV and all this(don't really understand it all yet though) and I'm a little confused as to how much of this kind of thing one is supposed to analyze during the hand and how much is for learning after the fact. It would seem rather difficult to input all this stuff whilst in the middle of the hand with the amount of time given when playing online.

Or is it kind of like the math for draws, hitting trips, etc where there are basic formula and %'s that are close enough to work and you can just memorise?

[PKKFW]

Call turn and expect to see the flush some of the time.

Well I did call but from reading other threads I know I'm not supposed to give the result so that's why I cut that part and the river out.

I guess I'm more wondering if my analysis and play would be considered good or bad.

[Shotglass]

If I just call he could have anything

While this may be true, do you really want to 3bet and then have him drop the garbage in his range and wind up facing only the top of his range? Since he's been so aggressive, I'd bet that there's a lot more junk in his calling range than you're giving him credit for. I'd much rather smooth call and let him bluff his 74o on the missed flop.

Pokerstove or ICM calculators for Tourneys are mostly used for post game analasys. After reviewing troublesome spots over and over you will start to get a feel for common situations.

[Razvan729]

Turn: ($4.85) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $2.40, Button raises to $7.71 (All-In)

pot odds: bet to call/( pot + bet to call)

(7,71-2,40)/(4,85+2,40+ 7,71 +(7,71-2,40))=5,31/20,27=25.58%

opp shoving range: A8-AT,99-TT,AJdd+,KQdd,KJdd,QJs, our equity vs this range is ~60% so its a call.

[PKKFW]

While this may be true, do you really want to 3bet and then have him drop the garbage in his range and wind up facing only the top of his range? Since he's been so aggressive, I'd bet that there's a lot more junk in his calling range than you're giving him credit for. I'd much rather smooth call and let him bluff his 74o on the missed flop.

Pokerstove or ICM calculators for Tourneys are mostly used for post game analasys. After reviewing troublesome spots over and over you will start to get a feel for common situations.

Good point and something I will look to try a bit more often.

[PKKFW]

Turn: ($4.85) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $2.40, Button raises to $7.71 (All-In)

pot odds: bet to call/( pot + bet to call)

(7,71-2,40)/(4,85+2,40+ 7,71 +(7,71-2,40))=5,31/20,27=25.58%

opp shoving range: A8-AT,99-TT,AJdd+,KQdd,KJdd,QJs, our equity vs this range is ~60% so its a call.

Thanks for that.

[kiwiMark]

she doesn't love you any more, just move on and get some sleep. you'll thank me in the morning.

[Razvan729]

that's based on your preflop range assign... suppose that's wrong and he is tight, then his range would be TT,99, AJdd+ and still vs this range you have 50% equity and even so it's a call since pot odds are 25.58%.


suppose again he would raise flop on sets and so let's take them out, and suppose again he is not calling that wide preflop, then the only hands we would shove on turn are AJdd+, AK/AQ/AJ with one diamond, again vs this range you have ~55% equity so again it's a call.

in my opinion, no matter how tight the player is, he is not jamming just flushes here so in this hand is always a call do to the price you're getting. someone corect me if i am wrong.

[Mr. Bucket]

Preflop: When this villain raises his button and we are in the bb our range should consist of three portions. Your A range are the hands that fair well against our villain's continue v. 3 bet range. These hands we 3bet for value. Your B range are the hands that do not fair well against his continue to 3bet range, but do great against his wide opening range. These hands we call as we have made the decision they are +ev to play this way. Our C hands are those which we feel it would be unprofitable to play against the villain's opening range. We 3bet the top of this range, and fold the rest.

This strategy is very important because we want to play as many hands as possible profitably. The hands in our B range are profitable for us to call with, so if we decide to 3bet them we are wasting the value of the hand. QJs is definitely in our B range in this spot. It is profitable for us to call or raise preflop; however, the ev of 3betting qjs is not too much greater than 3betting the top of our c range. Following this method allows us to play the most hands profitably.

Flop: I like betting this flop because getting JJ, QQ, and underpairs to fold is a great result. Shotglasses idea of c/c'ing to "get his air to bluff" makes little sense. We are currently behind most of the air in his range. Also we won't be able to fold out this air on later streets because his range will have to many made hands for us to lead the turn. C/r also seems bad as his betting range will have alot of aces. Our mistake on this flop is we should bet smaller to allow ourselves 3 comfortable streets of betting.

Turn: Betting this turn is mandatory as not too much of his range is flushes. There are lots of aces and potentially pairs that can call here. Again our problem is the weird sizing because if villain calls he's pot comitted on the river. This is a super easy call as his raising range here will consist of sets that chose not to raise the flop, Aces with the Ad, good aces that feel if they call here they have to call the river, so why not get it in now, and flushes.

Overall great first post, keep it up.

[rpm]

Preflop: When this villain raises his button and we are in the bb our range should consist of three portions. Your A range are the hands that fair well against our villain's continue v. 3 bet range. These hands we 3bet for value. Your B range are the hands that do not fair well against his continue to 3bet range, but do great against his wide opening range. These hands we call as we have made the decision they are +ev to play this way. Our C hands are those which we feel it would be unprofitable to play against the villain's opening range. We 3bet the top of this range, and fold the rest.

This strategy is very important because we want to play as many hands as possible profitably. The hands in our B range are profitable for us to call with, so if we decide to 3bet them we are wasting the value of the hand. QJs is definitely in our B range in this spot. It is profitable for us to call or raise preflop; however, the ev of 3betting qjs is not too much greater than 3betting the top of our c range. Following this method allows us to play the most hands profitably.

nicely put. though it's worth noting that in some situations, more so at the microstakes, we don't need or want a C range (that is, 3bet bluffing range). sure there will be players who are hugely exploitable to 3bet bluffs, spot them and 3bet bluff them. just dont' consider "3bet bluffing" a default play.

[Mr. Bucket]

I guess i should try to expand on that a little bit. The range you put into your 3 bet bluffing, calling, and 3 betting for value should depend hugely on the villains you are playing with. As rpm pointed out there is often no need for a 3betting C range at the lower stakes. The reason for this is because at the lower limits we are facing far less players who study the game. One of the biggest differences between players who do and do not study the game is that people who study the game think about their cards in relation to board textures and villain's ranges whereas new players tend to play their hand regardless of its relative strength. For example, if a fish raises KJo from his button and we 3bet he will rarely fold because his entire thought process is, "put money in with KJ? yeah sounds good to me". Many fish are also very stubborn as to their thoughts about their hand. Against villains like these the we shouldn't have a 3bet bluffing range because without fold equity these plays become unprofitable. Another problem with 3 betting as a bluff at the micros comes up due to fish other than the ones we are intending to steal from. Even if the BU is folding to 90% of 3bets 1 fishy player in the BB can make 3 bet bluffing from the SB extremely unprofitable because again we are going to get stuck playing hands that just aren't profitable. Fortunately, there is a way we can exploit these players. Although the prevalence of wide 3bet calling ranges makes 3bet bluffs unprofitable, we can respond by widening our A range. hands such as AJ or KQ that normally might be in a very poor shape against a 3bet calling range can be extremely profitable against fish who are playing cards these hands dominate. One thing to understand when widening your A range; however, is the increased importance position takes on. When we are 3bet bluffing from the blinds, our positional disadvantage can often be minimized because the majority of the EV of our play comes from the fold equity of our 3bet. This completely changes when we are pushing hands up from our B range to our A range because almost all of the value in this type of play comes from postflop advantages in skill level, position, and range strength.


That being said, from my limited experience there are tons of situations in which 3betting as a bluff can be hugely profitable at the micros. Because many of the regs at these stakes will never have dealt with someone 3betting them light, they will often fail to make adjustments, or do so incorrectly. Also, the value of these plays exceed the money you gain from them. When you are at the top of your range, players will often give you far more action if they have seen you 3bet earlier in the session.

The biggest problem i used to run into was focusing too much on 3 bet bluffing specific villains against whom I deemed it profitable, and not focusing enough on other players who would make the spot unprofitable.

Anyways, I'd love to hear commentary on my thought process.

[PKKFW]

WOW! Seriously you guys, thanks for those great posts! They have given me a huge amount to think about and work on. And so well put and, I hesitate to say it, "easy" to understand. Though I'm sure my understanding will be tested when I try to put some of this into practice.