Interesting email I got about online poker collusion

[BiloxiMS]

Ya know, when I first discovered online poker, the very first thought that popped into my mind was "Why doesn't someone just get 5 computers with 5 diffrerent ISP's and 5 accounts, put them in the same room and then wait for some poor sucker to sit down...

An email I received today...

My brother (name deleted) manages a hotel in Charlotte.
He’s a ‘friendly’ poker player and doesn’t take it too seriously- at least not as seriously as I do. He plays mainly small home games with friends for very low stakes. He always sees me logged on to the various online sites and even though he himself isn’t much of a player, he knows ‘pokerstars’ or ‘party poker’ the moment he sees it.

Last Tuesday, (name deleted) was at work behind the front desk when he gets a call down to a room that supposedly has a stopped up sink. His bellman was on break, so he left a desk clerk to watch the desk while he went down to take a look at it.
So he goes inside the room and sees five young guys- three of Eastern Indian extraction and two white kids- with laptops, laughing, drinking soda and having a grand time of things.
He noticed that on one of their computer screens there was a loaded pokerstars window. Then on another guys laptop, it was the exact same screen... Then on another guys laptop, it was the exact same screen. And on another guys laptop, the exact same screen.
When I say ‘the exact same screen’. I don’t mean that they were all just playing on pokerstars, I mean that they all were PLAYING IN THE SAME GAME.

I immediately started questioning him about technical matters- like, how they were set up and if he could identify any networking gear. He is about as tech savy as a caveman so wasn’t much help there, but from what I gathered just using what he told me, there was more than one wireless router present. The hotel DID NOT have wireless internet, so whatever they were using was something of their own.

With IP spoofing and IP masking being what it is, I think that collusion is almost unstoppable in spite of what the poker sites say.

You know that I stay ahead playing online. It isn't like I make insane money but I stay ahead. Nevertheless, this shook me a bit. When I think about how easy it would be to drain every sucker at the table if five or six of the players were in league with each other, it scares me.
I think my online play will be a lot more cautious from now on. Matter of fact, I think it will be a lot less.

Thoughts?

[Fnord]

File this one with the story of the drunk guy that wakes up in a bathtub full of ice with a Kidney missing.

[Fnord]

Alright, I'll unlock it... not that we haven't had this discussion like 4 times already, but at least this guy has a clue (although he's quite mistaken here.)

[lolzzz_321]

They must suck at colluding, even I haven't lost money!

ololololololololololololololololololoololololololo lolololololololololololololololool!!!!!!!!!!111111 111111111!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!eleven!!11!!!!!shiftones hiftone

[vqc]

shiftoneshiftone

[Fnord]

From: BiloxiMS
To: Fnord
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:34 am
Wondering why?

I have five friends and we have five laptop computers between us.
If you want me to prove it's possible, i'd be glad to.

(PS- The email came from a 'reliable source'. Not to say that he wasn't wrong, but it's someone I know not to be a bullshitter for the sake of bullshitting and it wasn't a 'forwarded' email)

From: Fnord
To: BiloxiMS
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:15 pm
BiloxiMS wrote:
I have five friends and we have five laptop computers between us.
If you want me to prove it's possible, i'd be glad to.

First, you need to disguise that the 5 machines are comming from the same source.
Second, you would need to collude in such a way that the poker site didn't pick up any suspicious patterns. Most exploitive patterns will be picked up pretty quick.

From: BiloxiMS
To: Fnord
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:29 pm
Since receiving the email, i've invested some thought into it.
Really, it wouldn't be that hard at all.

Many ISP's have dynamic IP addresses.
With each individual computer on a unique, dynamic IP address it would be almost impossible to spot a pattern.

Say each individual obtained 10 PokerStars accounts between the 5 of them.
That would represent an amazing assortment of player combinations that itself would be nearly impossible to detect.

Honestly, with a little bit of planning, I am confident that 5 people could pull this off and make a fortune. I think it's something that online players should be aware of.
Now that I have heard an actual report of it happening, I believe that there is much, much more to it.

If you don’t believe it can happen, I’ll be glad to put a challenge out to you.
Give me some time to get a few friends together and get a few technical matters in place and tell me your PokerStars account.

From: Fnord
To: BiloxiMS
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:31 pm
BiloxiMS wrote:
That would represent an amazing assortment of player combinations that itself would be nearly impossible to detect.

It's quite easy to detect and there is a good chance that many of your cash-outs wouldn't clear.

From: BiloxiMS
To: Fnord
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:00 pm
Well, you're wrong and i'd be glad to prove it.
Matter of fact, since apparently this is one of those 'Emporer Has No Clothes" things that will cause people to stick their heads in the sand and say LA-LA-LA-LA to keep from hearing the truth about something they love, this might be something that I have to prove to everyone myself just to get them to face the facts.

No, it wouldn't be easy to trace 10 accounts across 5 players colluding across dynamic protocol addresses.

That represents how many possible combinations?

No sense you and I arguing about this.
Tell ya what.
I'll do it myself, cash out safely and then post a website detailing the whole experience, just to show you and everyone else that not only *can* it be done, but it likely *is* being done on a regular basis.

From: Fnord
To: BiloxiMS
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:02 pm

BiloxiMS wrote:
Tell ya what.
I'll do it myself, cash out safely and then post a website detailing the whole experience, just to show you and everyone else that not only *can* it be done, but it likely *is* being done on a regular basis.


That's the stupidest thing you've said yet. I hope you don't try very hard to top that.

[Fnord]

BTW, what exploitive pattern would you use?

Whipsawing?
Hole card information?
Soft play?
All of the above?

Any clue which patterns are the easiest to get away with?

Have you considered that detecting multiple IPs from the same geographic area is very trivial? That it's feasible for the PokerStars client to detect other clients on the same LAN? etc. ...and I'm just a software guy...

What stakes woud you try this at? Given the current state of things, you'd have to cheat in pretty big games to make it worth it over just beating up on piss poor players.

For what it's worth, it's a lot easier and safer to cheat in a live game if you're so inclined.

[Fnord]

From: BiloxiMS
To: Fnord
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:47 pm
How and why is that 'stupid'?

[DoGGz]

BTW, what exploitive pattern would you use?

Whipsawing?
Hole card information?
Soft play?
All of the above?

Any clue which patterns are the easiest to get away with?

Have you considered that detecting multiple IPs from the same geographic area is very trivial? That it's feasible for the PokerStars client to detect other clients on the same LAN? etc. ...and I'm just a software guy...

What stakes woud you try this at? Given the current state of things, you'd have to cheat in pretty big games to make it worth it over just beating up on piss poor players.

For what it's worth, it's a lot easier and safer to cheat in a live game if you're so inclined.

What does Fnord know? He's a crappy programmer anyway. He's the reason why Blizzard games always crash.

[cartilago77]

Hmmm, I happen to know some people that did something very similar to this. It is quite possible.

[BiloxiMS]

BTW, what exploitive pattern would you use?

Whipsawing?
Hole card information?
Soft play?
All of the above?

Any clue which patterns are the easiest to get away with?

Have you considered that detecting multiple IPs from the same geographic area is very trivial? That it's feasible for the PokerStars client to detect other clients on the same LAN? etc. ...and I'm just a software guy...

What stakes woud you try this at? Given the current state of things, you'd have to cheat in pretty big games to make it worth it over just beating up on piss poor players.

For what it's worth, it's a lot easier and safer to cheat in a live game if you're so inclined.

I know that calling a moderator or an administrator on a website 'stupid' usually involves them throwing a tantrum and banning the individual, so I won't.

I'll just say that you're 'creatively challenged'- remarkably so for a ‘software’ guy.

First off, you obviously don't know what a 'dynamic IP' is.
Apparently, you are also totally unable to think up how someone could spoof or cloak an IP.
And I guess that the whole idea of connecting to various ISP’s that aren’t patterned (like, connecting to an ISP in Indiana today, one in Virginia tomorrow...) is just beyond your comprehension level too.

As far as an 'exploitive pattern', it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how 5 or 6 hands in collusion with each other against 1 or two players would wind up taking the players money.

Even if you played all 5 hands and fished every single one that had a decent DRAW to the flop, over time you would come out ahead against the player who wasn't in league with the collusion.
It's why the term 'collusion' even exists in poker.

If you can't figure out for yourself the immense advantage it gives, I don't think that I could explain it to you.
If you don’t believe it can happen or that it has happened, I guess you are one of those pie in the sky types.

[BiloxiMS]

From: BiloxiMS
To: Fnord
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:47 pm
How and why is that 'stupid'?

Wow. You are a childish sort of dude, aren't ya.
Instead of just posting my IM's to you, why don't you post the context so they make sense...

Me: Tell ya what.
I'll do it myself, cash out safely and then post a website detailing the whole experience, just to show you and everyone else that not only *can* it be done, but it likely *is* being done on a regular basis.

Him: That's the stupidest thing you've said yet. I hope you don't try very hard to top that.

Me:
How and why is that 'stupid'?

So, lets see what we have here.
Fnord locks the thred with that stupid "conspiracy theory' denial syndrome.

Then, when I explain how it could be done, he says "You're STUPID!"

I suppose his next logical retort will be calling me a poo-poo head and telling teacher

[Fnord]

Stealing thousands of dollars then putting up a website describing how you did it is pretty darn stupid. I don't think that's a very subjective observation. The reason why lots of the best collusion/criminal/etc rings get caught is that the members can't shut the fuck up, get cocky, stupid, careless, etc. and get caught. For some reason simeball people who do shit like this have a hard time working well together, who'd thunk that?

Also are you suggesting that multiple accounts + ISPs from the same physical machine wouldn't raise a flag? You also didn't answer my question as to what patterns you would use and how you would avoid having programs that look at full hand histories (with all the hole cards) detect any suspicious trends?

There are lots people working for the Poker Sites (perhaps even working together accross the multiple poker sites, as it's in their collective best interest) to make this sort of thing very difficult.

[BoondockSaint]

if u get caught and put in jail dont call fnord to bail you out

[WhooFleuryScores]

It's like the Metador and his horses.......for the righ guys this is nuclear supremacy and the best of the sharks are doomed.

[Fnord]

I just find it silly that people are so paranoid about this stuff online, when it's trivial to get a bunch of guys on the same B&M table flashing hand signals to each other. At worst you'll be kicked out and it's unlikely any funds will be taken because without an audit trail nothing can be proved. The security cameras are far more interested in the dealer box and many poker room cameras have a poor view of the players.

Heck, I see flat illegal stuff at the poker table all the time and am put in the position of evaluating the game quality based on that. Soft play, people giving each other chips at the table, speaking in foreign languages, etc..

[BoondockSaint]

people giving each other chips at the table

i didnt realize this was illegal - its funny cause on rounders at the Taj they wouldnt let worm take chips from mike and it was at the Taj that I gave my friend like 300 in chips so he wouldnt have to go buy his own

is that just like straight up illegal or depends on the room or what - i really dont see anything wrong with it as long as it isnt in like the middle of a hand borrowing chips to have more money or something

[BiloxiMS]

illegal

illegal

illegal

Cite me the law that in no unclear wording actually has statutory nomenclature that says it's illegal to collude at online poker.

Don't stomp your feet and insist it's illegal because your cousin who is a cop says so, cite me the law.
Fuck, cite me something that is even REMOTELY CLOSE to addressing 'cheating' at online poker.

[Fnord]

Cite me the law that in no unclear wording actually has statutory nomenclature that says it's illegal to collude at online poker.

...but it's illegal to throw a forward pass after moving past the line of scrimmage.

I just love arguing with people that don't even understand english. Illegal != criminal. Laws involving fraud, etc. may apply, but I'm not a laywer nor am I going to try to play one on this message board.

[BiloxiMS]

Stealing

Show me where it's illegal.

You also didn't answer my question as to what patterns you would use

As far as 'patterns', it shocks me that a person who actually plays poker for real, live money fails to see the advantage of multiple people playing in the same online poker room all sharing their hole cards.

Look at it like this.
You sit down with a $2000 roll and are dealt 2 hole cards.
I have a $10,000 collective roll and have five different sets of hole cards to play.

Who do you think will win in the end?
Is it really, truly beyond your comprehension that you cannot see clear as day what an immense advantage the colluders have over the sucker?
Anyway, 'patterns' that are software driven can be beaten.
It's a simple matter of not winning every time.
Allowing one colluder to beat the other regularly.
Since at the end of the day the bankroll is communal, it doesn't matter which one of the five individual accounts comes out ahead as they all share in whatever profits are drained from an individual player.

There are lots people working for the Poker Sites (perhaps even working together accross the multiple poker sites, as it's in their collective best interest) to make this sort of thing very difficult.

Right, and i'm sure you are emailing them links to this thread as we speak.

In short, i'll challenge you in public.
Give me your pokerstars account name and make sure to leave 'find a player' active.
If you say this can't be done, you should have nothing to fear, as we'll surely 'get caught' before being able to drain the cash.

Right?

[BiloxiMS]

I just love arguing with people that don't even understand english. Illegal != criminal. Laws involving fraud, etc. may apply, but I'm not a laywer nor am I going to try to play one on this message board.

You are a total retard.

"Illegal" means "Breaking A Law".

Just because you 'feel' something is illegal or 'wish' something is illegal doesn't mean it is. Furthermore, just because collusion is prohibited by poker rooms and frowned upon in the game of poker, the laws of most countries aren't predicated on the rules of a card game.

I indeed understand English and apparently, i'm the only one between us who understands how 'law' works.

Laws are restrictive, not permissive.
In order for something to be illegal, there has to be a law saying so.
You can always play the word game using broad principles of statute to charge anyone for anything, but in reality, you need a law to say someone has done something illegal in order for it to constitute 'breaking the law'. Hell, in many US States, online poker is illegal to begin with, and there is an active debate as to whether it's illegal Federally or not.
Welcome to the new age where the laws move at 1/20th the speed of technology.

Anyway, do you care to show me that law?
Or anyone for that matter?

[Fnord]

Stealing

Show me where it's illegal.

Colluding is against the rules of poker. Now, you're not going to argue that it's not theft are you? One lesson in english is quite enough for a thread.

You also didn't answer my question as to what patterns you would use

As far as 'patterns', it shocks me that a person who actually plays poker for real, live money fails to see the advantage of multiple people playing in the same online poker room all sharing their hole cards.

You never said how you'd accomplish this without having hand scanners pick up your activity or set off any flags. Oh, it's quite easy to make money, it's not getting caught that's hard.

Right, and i'm sure you are emailing them links to this thread as we speak.

Not really.

In short, i'll challenge you in public.
Give me your pokerstars account name.

A R E Y O U O N D R U G S?

[Fnord]

You are a total retard.

"Illegal" means "Breaking A Law".

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=illegal

3 entries found for illegal.
il·le·gal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-lgl)
adj.
1. Prohibited by law.
2. Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football.
3. Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation

I didn't make up the laguage man, I just speak it...

[BiloxiMS]

Colluding is against the rules of poker. Now, you're not going to argue that it's not theft are you? One lesson in english is quite enough for a thread.

See my post above yours'
The rules of poker don't govern the law of a nation. If you cheat at football, there is NOTHING that a cop can arrest you for.
If you stand too far in front of the free throw line, there are NO laws that permit your incarceration for doing so.

The fact that you think they do shows that you have the legal knowledge of a typical TV Watcher.

To add to that further, there are essentially no laws governing online poker that is based in another country- like, none zero whatsoever.
There is essentially no jurisdiction that a private business in Costa Rica has over me in the US regarding an activity that has no basis in either Costa Rican or US law.

It would be like you being charged in an Afghan court for being an infidel as you sat in your living room in Kommiefornia.

Really.
Go research this stuff for yourself.
You will be in for a sore, saddening lesson.
If pokerstars shut down tommorow and kept your entire roll, you would have no recourse.

Unfortunately, I understand how the law works.

At times, it's a good thing. Other times, it's entertaining (as I watch people like yourself contort reality to fit your preconceptions, and then cap it all off by convincing yourself that it's 'the law')
Other times, it's a little scary as I understand that the veil of 'safety' that so many people have faith in really isn't there.

[Fnord]

Ummm... you're the one that changed the context of illegal and brought criminal law into this.

If pokerstars shut down tommorow and kept your entire roll, you would have no recourse.

I'm well aware of the juristiction issues and grey market status of online poker, thank you.

You seem to be making the argument that the grey market status of online poker makes it ok to steal. Quite a disturbing line of thought and perhaps you should take a serious look at the ethics under which you live your life. Stealing is wrong, even if it's from the neighborhood bookie.

[BiloxiMS]

Ummm... you're the one that changed the context of illegal and brought criminal law into this.

My god.
I guess the complete inability to process logic is native to people from your state (Not a great shock seeing as what comes out of that state, but sad to see nevertheless) .

Ya see, first you started off saying that it was 'illegal' and intimated that it was criminal and stupid to talk about because of it's illegality.

Then, when you realized that you were wrong, you immediately went into Bill Clinton mode and started to parse the language down to it's most pedantic level

Give me a fucking break.
Go read your own words and then try to appreciate the context that you yourself established.

[pokerlearner]

I dont know what soft play is.

But giving each other chips at the table IS ILLEGAL and so is speaking in foreign languages while the hand is in progress .

in the b&M i play, the dealer will warn you if you speak with someone in foreign language when a hand is in progress. as for giving chips, sometimes you can throw 3-4 chips to your buddy when you beat him on a pot but you CANNOT give chips to your friend when he is buying in or busted out. you can give him cash outside the table.

giving chips to someone on the table voids the jackpot and the dealer will not allow that...heck other players will call the floorman if you try to insist doing that.

[Fnord]

I dont know what soft play is.

If you and someone you know are in a pot and you check it down or deliberatly miss bets. The primary assertion of poker is that everyone acts in their own best interest at the table.

sometimes you can throw 3-4 chips to your buddy when you beat him on a pot

I was under the impression that this is also against the rules, but often tolerated.

[BiloxiMS]

I dont know what soft play is.

An example of Soft play would be if Bob and Jim were buddies and had an arrangement to signal each other when one of them had a 'winning hand'.

This can be done with hand signals or bet amounts in a ring game.
Online, it can be done with bet amounts or with backchannel communication via Instant Messanger.

[Fnord]

speaking in foreign languages while the hand is in progress

In the states of Washington and Nevada speaking a foreign language around the poker table at any time is prohibited. Unsure about California, I ought to look it up. It's certainly in poor taste to speak in a foreign language with other players at the table between hands. When there is serious money at stake, no suspect behavior should be tolerated.

[pokerlearner]

Thanks for the example.

Yes i have seen it all the time dealers tolerate that kind of behaviour (throwing 3-4 chips to your buddy after a pot). and the soft play is carried out ROUTINELY between buddies at the b&m tables. I dont like it, but i have seen some friends do it ROUTINELY. and no body complains (i guess they dont want to appear hostile or whatever).

should i avoid those tables ?? I have felt that it doesnt work against me that often enough to have some serious concern. Would you guys leave the table if 2 buddies were doing it like that. ?

i would definitely leave if I am squeezed with raises in between two buddies or one person 3 bets to protect his buddy's hand with trash (believe me, i have seen that too where the buddy says "lets see if we can make you win this pot by protecting this hand").

[CrunchyNuts]

Man, I so hope you try this for a couple weeks. The colluder-poker room war has been going on for some time now, but your trivial ideas will surely win with no issue.

Go make some money!

[Fnord]

should i avoid those tables ??

Otherwise how good is the game? Bottom line is, if you're not comfortable, get up and leave. If the game is run poorly, quietly take the floor aside on the way out and tell them why you're leaving. Don't make a scene at the table.

[pokerlearner]

I do exactly that when there are like 4 people at one side of the table all talking in their language (when a hand is not in progress of course) and are friendly to each other and checking each other but start collectively calling my raises...LOL

I dont leave if 2 buddies are checking each other. I am not that good a player but i do fine even at 4-8 level. the competition is mostly terrible players (calling down with king or queen high till the river, taking their hands too far ) (but sometimes participating in 8 way capped pots ). i find that it doesnt work against me often enough to leave the table when its only 2 people softplaying . more than that i would leave.

[Fnord]

Like I said, you have to consider it when evaluating the table. It's tough to get the best of TAgg in an 8-way capped pot without blatent whipsawing. They're giving up A LOT of ground pre-flop.

BTW, here is a more exploitive form of Soft Play:

Scum has AQ pre-flop and signals his hand to Creep in LP who signals Scum to fold because Creep has AK. The team doesn't gain enough value by having both AK and AQ in the pot (pumping the rake might also be an issue) and they might draw a weaker opener this way that will walk right into AK. Certainly a fold like this in a limit game would draw some flags.

[TylerK]

You know, this thread could have been ended MANY posts ago by just saying "ok" to the retarded guy who said "OH YEAH!? WANT TO SEE ME PROVE IT!?!?"

[a500lbgorilla]

You know, this thread could have been ended MANY posts ago by just saying "ok" to the retarded guy who said "OH YEAH!? WANT TO SEE ME PROVE IT!?!?"

ok

-'rilla

[allLiving]

That's another good reason to play tournies, collude that, ya fuckers!

[stoltzy]

when your done with internet poker
you can collude my balls!!!
if you want to?

[dalecooper]

Am I the only person who thinks anyone who feels they can prove it can be done, should go try to prove it? And by all means, put up a web site illustrating what you did. I wouldn't turn my nose up at any knowledge you can provide for me, and if you happen to get busted by the site and have your communal roll confiscated, it's no skin off my nose. I won't be helping in your little experiment, but feel free to proceed without me.

I think something like this is possible, and getting away with it is possible; but I doubt it's happening on a large scale, especially at lower stakes (where the profit is too small to make it worthwhile for anyone smart enough to be good at it).