Project Omaha Hi

[norman]

Hi all.


I've been mainly lurking for a few years now with the occasional contribution to different forums. For most of that time I have played limit hold'em ring and no limit sng's and tournaments. At one time I started playing O8. I was not successful with this and reverted to hold'em.


I am a recreational player and have no ambition to make poker my main income source, but I would love to start turning a real profit. Over the years I would guess I am marginally ahead due to one 4 figure prize in a tournament. That paid for a new kitchen.


I would guess that I am quite a lot older than the majority of FTR members at 56. My current job gives me some periods of downtime when I can play and read up. I aim to get more “professional” in attitude to the game.


I have (whoops, had) $49.21 in an account with Lucky Ace (Linked to Pacific Poker) which I have left mainly dormant since I bought in for $50 as part of a package.


The Plan


Play exclusively Pot Limit Omaha on Lucky Ace at the minimum buy in available until I have at least 30 buy ins at the for the next level. If volatility proves to be high I may revise this upwards. If I go down to 20 buy ins at a level, move down. Currently there is only one table available at 1c/2c. If I can't get on this table I will buy in short at the next level 3c/6c where they spread as many tables as needed.


Below 5c/10c only 9 seaters are spread, above that I can play 6 max.


Play sit n gos if the buy in is less than 5% of my bankroll. I can carry on playing sngs as long as I keep winning over a rolling 10. If I lose, no more sngs until I have increased my roll back up at least the amount lost at sngs + 2 buy ins. There is very little sng activity on this site at PLO.


Play tournaments if the buy in is less than 2% of my bankroll. This won't happen often as Pacific don't spread many Omaha tourneys at times convenient for me.


Spend roughly 1/3 of my playing time on this site.


The Levels


1c/2c max buy in $2.00 – starting with $49.21


3c/6c max buy in $6.00 – roll $180
play with $2 while below 30 buy ins


5c/10c max buy in $10.00 – roll $300


12c/25c max buy in $25 – roll $750


25c/50c max buy in $50 – roll $1500
If I ever make it to here, I will review how I spend my poker time


First Session


This was a bit of a disaster. I got a seat on the 1c/2c table. I am down to $44.78 having initially gone over $51 . I will post a few hands when I have the time, but it was probably a combination of bad beat and bad play. Perhaps I should try exclusively playing or exclusively typing.


By the way, I play under the name zpddooda at Lucky Ace.

[daven]

Pot Limit Omaha Strategy

[Kijjo]

I understand your choice to play exclusively Omaha on this site, but their table/tourney options really seems limited! I guess the good thing is that it should be very easy to get to know the playerbase and identify your fish and your regs.
Good luck!

[norman]

Thanks for the comments. I think I will have to use a different site if I am to get help here as it is not possible to save hand histories. Lucky Ace don't allow me to save hand histories to my computer - they do allow me to review histories on a replayer included with the interface. Pacific Hand Grabber only records the first 2 hole cards as it was designed for hold'em.

If I were to try and post a hand for review, I would have to match the hand in the replayer with the saved Grabber hand by the time of the hand as the replayer does not show the hand number. I would then have to use some hand trimmer and then manually add all known hole cards. This is all a bit time consuming.

Having said all this, my play was so bad that I don't really want anyone to see anyway. I had been playing solely 6 max trying out O hi over the last couple of weeks and think that I have not tightened up post flop appropriately for full ring.

CHANGES

I rebought into Full Tilt a few weeks ago and have built up to $140 with bonuses and running good. I will follow all the same rules that I gave myself in the first posting and just switch sites to Tilt. Certainly there are more tables at any one time here and the choices for sngs and tournaments are greater. I did play a few hands earlier today at 1c/2c and made about $4, mainly on one hand where the other guys piled up a few Sklansky dollars.

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($0.98)
UTG ($5.45)
UTG+1 ($1.48)
MP1 ($0.76)
MP2 ($1.32)
MP3 ($1.22)
CO ($6.26)
Button ($4.33)
Hero (SB) ($3.82)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, 9, 9, 10
5 folds, CO bets $0.04, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.03, BB raises to $0.16, CO raises to $0.52, Hero calls $0.48, BB raises to $0.98 (All-In), CO calls $0.46, Hero calls $0.46

Flop: ($2.94) 2, Q, A (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.47, Hero calls $1.47

Turn: ($5.88) 2 (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero checks, CO bets $2.94, Hero calls $1.37 (All-In)

River: ($8.62) 5 (3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $8.62 | Rake: $0.57

This will not represent my play in the future. Honest.

[donkbee]

lol...

GL

[daven]

play better and you'll be fine.
Research the basics on starting hand selection, read spenda's article i linked above. And don't play like you did in the posted hands. Oh, and if you don't already have rakeback on your FTP account then try and get it sorted - http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...on-174515.html
follow the rakeback pros suggestion

[norman]

I have been mainly playing 6 max $2 pot limit on Full Tilt, having read the PLO survivor's guide posted by Spenda and recommended by Daven. I also played a short session at 6 max $5 a few days ago before going back down to $2. The results:


$2.00 - 498 hands + $10.65 at a ridiculous BB/100 49.71
$5.00 - 18 hands + $4.27


So far so good though I'm obviously running lucky at the moment. I have mainly kept to one table at a time whilst on the steep bit of the learning curve. Even playing one table, I am not able to take in the whole hand immediately and often have to use the hand replayer to find out why I won/lost. It has been fairly easy to count my own outs, but I still struggle to enumerate the potential outs for opponents.


I played one sng, only the second I have ever played at Omaha. The first was on Stars when I first started playing, when I mistook an Omaha table for a Hold'em table. Incredibly I have a 100% win rate over a 5 year period! At least I understood the rules this time.


I also entered a $3 tournament, coming nowhere.


I don't think I can learn good play at the $2 level. My opponents are playing as badly or worse than the bottom level of limit hold'em on Stars (yes, that bad) and I think I am winning still because I am less bad rather than better. My Full Tilt account stands at $155, so on a 30 buy in basis I can move up to $5.


I have not yet encountered a river reraise bluff. 100% of the time the villain has done this with the nuts. My first $5 resolution is to fold my very good hands in these circumstances.


I have got into the habit of flat calling with any pocket pair from the button when there have only been callers or a single raise. My second resolution is to stop doing this as my pair of 4's that becomes a set is a potential big loser.


Onwards.

[donkbee]

Incredibly I have a 100% win rate over a 5 year period! At least I understood the rules this time.

lol

I don't think I can learn good play at the $2 level. My opponents are playing as badly or worse than the bottom level of limit hold'em on Stars (yes, that bad) and I think I am winning still because I am less bad rather than better.

less bad = better. make as much money as you can, it's nice to play versus bad players. move up when you have the bankroll.

I have not yet encountered a river reraise bluff. 100% of the time the villain has done this with the nuts. My first $5 resolution is to fold my very good hands in these circumstances.

yessss

I have got into the habit of flat calling with any pocket pair from the button when there have only been callers or a single raise. My second resolution is to stop doing this as my pair of 4's that becomes a set is a potential big loser.

yesssss. you'll make tons of money when people stack off with lower sets in this game. same with non nut flushes.

GLGL

[rpm]

in my limited experience playing micro PLO, the one thing i've learned is the 3rd point quoted in courtie's above post. gl with your grindzzzzzzz

[norman]

Thanks Courtie and RPM.

After this morning's posting I went on to play a few more hands at $5. This came up early in the session

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($5)
BB ($6.04)
UTG ($3.19)
Hero (MP) ($5.49)
CO ($5.37)
Button ($21.29)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 10, J, J, 10
UTG calls $0.05, Hero calls $0.05, CO calls $0.05, Button bets $0.32, 1 fold, BB calls $0.27, UTG calls $0.27, Hero calls $0.27, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.35) 4, 7, J (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $1.35, Button raises to $5.40, 2 folds, Hero calls $3.82 (All-In)

Preflop I decided to just call. I had 2 pairs one straight possible and one flush possible. I was only going to play the hand if the flop hit hard. Right/Wrong?

I then called the raise getting 4:1 odds. Right/Wrong?

Bingo on the flop. I had the nuts and raised pot size. The button reraised and to call I had to go all in. One thing that was clear was that I was currently ahead.

The button could have made trip 4's or 7's and I was way ahead of those.

He could have a straight draw. If he held 4567 he would have 8 outs for the straight, 4 outs for a boat, and possibly 8 outs for a flush (I had one of his flush outs). This combination would give him 20 outs and make him favourite. Any other straight draw holding would give him fewer outs. Edit - any card giving him a boat would give me a better one in this scenario. 16 outs and it's close.

He could have a bare flush draw with 8 outs.

He could have an overpair with 2 outs or 2 overpairs with 4 outs.

He could have an overpair with a flush or straight draw, 10 outs

He could have an overpair with a flush draw and an open ended straight draw, 18 outs and he's favourite.

Have I got these out calculations correct? I have a feeling that I will encounter this kind of scenario a lot.

I called

[donkbee]

My head hurt reading your post. I would have raised pf but the hand seems pretty standard.

[norman]

"I have a feeling that I will encounter this kind of scenario a lot."

I have the gift of prophecy

Lucky Ace, $0.03/$0.06 PL Omaha Cash Game, 7 Players
LeggoPoker.com Hand History Converter

Hero (BB): $6
UTG: $1.82
UTG+1: $7.04
MP: $5.92
CO: $17.47
BTN: $4.11
SB: $3.63

Pre-Flop: Th Td Js Jd dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG calls $0.06, UTG+1 calls $0.06, MP raises to $0.33, CO calls $0.33, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.27, UTG calls $0.27, UTG+1 calls $0.27

Flop: ($1.68) 7c Jh 2s (5 Players)
Hero bets $1.60, UTG calls $1.49 and is All-In, 3 folds

Turn: ($4.66) Kh (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($4.66) 4h (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $4.66 Pot ($0.12 Rake)
Hero showed Th Td Js Jd and WON $0.11 (-$1.65 NET)
UTG showed Ah As 4d 6h and WON $4.43 (+$2.61 NET)

This time the villain needed an Ace, or hearts on the turn and river to beat me. At least the villain had more than 2 outs on the turn in the hand I posted earlier.

[norman]

"My head hurt reading your post"

Sorry. I'll put my thoughts in better order next.

[donkbee]

nah it's not your fault, I'm just lazy I think it's good that you're really thinking about what your opponents could have.

[rpm]

in reference to the TTJJ hand:
don't quote me on this, but i think you flop a set with a double paired hand about 30% of the time, if i recall correctly. so hands like TTJJ are great for set value, especially if they are suited and can flop you a flush draw as well. hands like 4455 look good i guess but they're pretty troublesome because you are never going to make top set on a board which cannot have a straight (77 is the lowest pair you can flop top set with without it being possible for anyone to have a straight) and they are crushed as a straight draw hand by 3456, 4567, 5678 etc or even 3457,2456, you get the picture.

[Kijjo]

wow 30% for double paired hands - that's the kind of stat that's really useful, any other omaha stats like that you can share rpm?
obviously I haven't read any omaha specific books yet, mainly just videos and FTR articles and stuff.
I'm enjoying your story norman, keep it up. I can definitely relate to the "I think I just suck less" feeling.

[drmcboy]

Pot-Limit Omaha: Hand-Strength Classifications - CardPlayer.com

A two-pair hand will flop a set 21.4 percent of the time.

Hold em math usually still applies - 1/8 + 1/8 =! 30%

[norman]

Thanks for the encouragements and links. The CardPlayer link is great. I found Jeff Hwang's articles a couple of days ago and followed these to his book "Pot Limit Omaha Poker" and downloaded this as an ebook.

With this as my textbook I will play less and study more for a spell. I was encouraged when he described himself as a competent player rather than a poker genius.

The first useful thing I got from the book is to regard PLO as a drawing game rather than a made hand game like Hold'em. Raising to protect can be costly and pointless.

I have skimmed the PLO sections of the book and am now focusing on chapter 1 which is all about getting into freeroll and dominating situations. Hopefully I can post something useful from this book/practical situations I have encountered when I have taken in the detail. I will review my big wins/losses in the light of what I learn.

I followed Courtie's recommendation and decided to stay at the $2 level for now whilst learning. Currently I am up $16.73 over 1,531 hands at 27.32 BB/100.

[norman]

This hand came up yesterday. I have follow on questions but would welcome thoughts on how I played it to this point. My thoughts up to here:

Preflop Standard?

Flop. I wasn't giving any straight freeroll unless there was an unlikely combination of cards. A tie with one or the other of the villains holding 89 was possible. I needed to reraise to charge any flush chaser.

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP) ($4.89)
CO ($2.63)
Button ($2.05)
SB ($1.90)
BB ($2)
UTG ($2.14)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A, 9, 8, 10
1 fold, Hero bets $0.05, CO calls $0.05, 1 fold, SB calls $0.04, BB calls $0.03

Flop: ($0.20) 10, 7, 6 (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.20, Hero raises to $0.80, CO calls $0.80, 1 fold, BB raises to $1.95 (All-In)

[norman]

The follow on to the last post is that there were 2 freerolls going. I shared the nut straight with the cutoff. A non spade Jack would have given me the nuts. He had 2 spades for a non nut flush draw.

The Joker was the big blind who held 2 pair and made a boat on the turn.

This situation in Hold'em would be very rare. I guess in Omaha I have to be ready for this sort of thing. With 4 outs the big blind should have folded obv. Without the Ace of Spades, the cut off was trusting to luck a bit. On reflection, perhaps I should have folded as I had at best 3/4 outs for my redraw. The worst combo of outs against me would have been a set shooting at a boat/quads, 7 outs on the turn and 10 outs on the river and a flush draw with 8 outs, pretty close to the real situation. With 2 cards to come, 15/18 outs possibly and a likely split pot in most other circs, I will fold next time.

[drmcboy]

you could maybe cold call the first time, but once you raise you're going with it, too much money out there.

Fold pre flop, you want the ace suited. this would maybe be a raise on the button.

89 is still the nuts on a JT7 board

[rpm]

Pot-Limit Omaha: Hand-Strength Classifications - CardPlayer.com



Hold em math usually still applies - 1/8 + 1/8 =! 30%

my bad. i didn't attempt the math myself, probably wouldnt have known how to be honest. i just had read and remembered (wrongly) the statistic from hwang's first book. thanks for clarifying doc and sorry for misleading anyone who took my comment seriously.

[norman]

"89 is still the nuts on a JT7 board"

A new goal for this op. I will look at myself in the mirror every morning and and say "Don't post rubbish."