Russians vs. Americans: A Werewolf Game for October 2015

[wufwugy]

my chief concern is wanting to not fracture the player base.

[JKDS]

That's not the right way to think about it. It's a joint work by all parties involved, and sharing it without consent of those parties is unethical.

Getting that consent is debatable tho. In some such joint ventures and partnerships, a decision like this need be unanimous. In other, merely majority vote by those involved. In any case, it's not that bid wants it revealed that matters, it's that lots of the wolves want it revealed.

The villager's enjoyment tho is irrelevant. We'd get pleasure out of reading a private diary l, but that doesn't give us a right to read it. How private is the den? Dunno, but one wolf wanted it private from the get go, and perhaps he would not have posted there at all if he knew his wishes would be ignored.

[BankItDrew]

Jkds, regarding your comment about this being unanimous, which side should be?

Should keeping it private be unanimous?
Should making it public be unanimous?

[BankItDrew]

well it shouldn't matter more. im just assessing who has more skin in the game. if somebody else posts it, rilla might actually be really upset. that would be a problem. he would likely be more upset by that than bid is upset that it's not being posted. granted i dont know how upset gabe is.

my idea for compromise that would mitigate the damage is to keep this one private but declare that all in the future will be public.

I agree with this compromise. If someone can't agree to this or can't come up with a different compromise - gfy

As far as how upset I am that I can't share the den like I wanted to and planned on doing going into the game - I've never been this upset.

[JKDS]

Its defaulted as private. We take for granted the fact that we get to see the den thread at all, and most people dont care so it gets autoposted. But its still a private chat. And there are good reasons to keep it private, otherwise we could potentially run into a scenario where the den looks like this

fake den

JKDS: So, we're all in agreement. We do the thing discussed via pm?
Boog: Ya, im in.
Ong: Good. But how about we ______________-
JKDS: ONG, shhhhhh. Strat via pms only, delete that post pls.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

That'd be lame. But its how it would look if people cared. We cant 'force' someone into revealing their wolf secrets, and we'll only upset them by attempting to do so. For this reason, it should be a unanimous decision to reveal the thread at all.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats just my opinion though. Theres valid arguments that it should be majority vote instead (by wolves). Theres also valid arguments that the thread isnt really private. I disagree with those arguments, but theyre there.

[JKDS]

As to one of rilla's points...

The entire purpose of the wolf thread is to facilitate more effective communication amongst the wolves (and mod). It wouldnt exist but for this purpose. Its also a lot like Attorney Client privilege, where privacy is essential to the communication at all. If someone was afraid of his secrets getting out...there isnt much incentive for him to share those secrets in a den that would later be revealed. It'd be like if everything the client told the attorney was revealed post trial.

Dead threads are a different can of worms though. Those came about to keep players entertained while waiting for the game to finish. The only reason those are private is because there could be potential spoilers/clues within them that could ruin the current game. Once that possibility is removed, the thread need no longer be private.

[wufwugy]

If someone was afraid of his secrets getting out...there isnt much incentive for him to share those secrets in a den that would later be revealed.

but the secrets do get out. five other people know everything rilla posted. it strikes me as using duct tape to plug holes in teh bathtub when we say "im keeping my strategy a secret when only five regs know exactly how i went about it instead of the group of fifteen regs".

regardless, let me be on record in saying that i dont think reading dens is a good way to gather strategy elements in the first place. the den should be considered public property since its private function exists only for the purpose of the game itself running. any notion that its privacy serves a purpose of keeping secrets long term is not an element for why it exists in the first place.

additionally, it just feels unfair. we're all friends here, nobody is cheating anybody. when i saw that it was not going to be posted, my first thought was "oh so you're better than me?" i can imagine gabe would be upset since he's one of those who looks forward to reading them. maybe he wouldn't like the game as much if he didn't get to read the den, i dont know.

also i think it creates technical problems with the game threads down the road. we're not supposed to talk about things not game specific, and if the dens aren't shared, people would end up talking about things they're technically not supposed to.

[Keith]

Completely separately from the actual discussion at hand:

Why is it that only rilla's opinion matters as far as the chat being hidden, whereas BID's opinion that he want's the chat shared is not equally valid? Both were wolves. Both are equally passionate. What is the missing factor which chooses which opinion dominates?

other wolves should always overrule BID anyway and tell him what to post instead.

[wufwugy]

other wolves should always overrule BID anyway and tell him what to post instead.

hadnt you heard, bid's good these days.

[gabe]

i had so much tension this game since 2 wolves claimed my role and i fought the urge to counter claim for so long. in my head, one of the payoffs to doing this was getting to see the wolf thread and how they squirmed. if i had died day 1 i wouldnt care as much.

mostly i agree with batm. "they lost, we won, who gives a hoot whatever they said in there"

BUT i'm still arguing because i think rilla's side is just straight up wrong. i cant believe how many posts wuf has made that i agree with every word. ive never agreed with wuf so much on a page of a werewolf game, and probably never will again. i could quote 50 of his sentences and add "QFT"

i think the "hide the den" position is wrong. the argument is that there is privileged information in there, that, when shared, hurts the future wolves. there are two problems with this, and they have already been pointed out, but i feel like i also have to type it out

1) it's not actually secret info. 6 regs know everything that went down in there. the rest of us dont
2) anything you want to keep secret in there is NOT ACTUALLY USEFUL.

i wanted to see it for entertainment value. i think most everyone wants to see it for entertainment value. there is only educational value for the most inexperienced of players, of which i see NONE around here

the two wuf points that i would like to endorse :
1) rilla is trying to solve his wolf problem by picking at irrelevant things
2) the wolf thread doesn't actually have any special information. any sweet wolf tactic you created and put in there is, in all likelihood, not unique or special. even if it was, the tactic would/should only be useful for the exact situation/context you applied it in.

[gabe]

Completely separately from the actual discussion at hand:

Why is it that only rilla's opinion matters as far as the chat being hidden, whereas BID's opinion that he want's the chat shared is not equally valid? Both were wolves. Both are equally passionate. What is the missing factor which chooses which opinion dominates?

or what if BID was arguing it should be public, because that helps future wolves? it means everyone could study it (as if that helped! ha!) and thus improve their wolf plays. then both sides are fighting for the same effect. one of them would be wrong though


jkds your consent argument is all BS. the point of the game is to have fun. if this game had any real stakes then we would have to decide this stuff as a community. since there are no stakes, and only a minority want it hidden, it should be public (in the future). i dont mind this one staying private as long as everyone involved knows they are wrong

[gabe]

the arguments are all laid out, and i guess either side isnt going to budge. fwiw i did spend a real amount of time trying to convince myself i was wrong

maybe rilla/gator/jkds could make me budge a little if they showed me an example of this stuff actually mattering. but i feel like i have all my counter arguments ready so whats the point

[wufwugy]

i cant believe how many posts wuf has made that i agree with every word.

[JKDS]

It's not bs. We force it this game, perhaps rilla chooses not to post in the den next time at all. Then his privacy is respected...even tho that would hurt his team. It's not like we could force him to be forthcoming.

Me, personally, I don't care. I got no skin in this discussion, and am otherwise welcome to share. But it's not me that need be convinced. It's one of the 6 ppl who can post it.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I agree with gabe, FWIW.

***
Anecdotal arguments that open wolf chats are excellent for future wolves:

I don't know if I would have bothered to play a 2nd or maybe 3rd game of WW if not for reading the wolf chat after the game. I found the game difficult to understand. The goals are simple, but the assumptions I made about how to go about them were all bunk. The assumptions I made about what goes on in wolf chat were laughable.

After not flipping W for a dozen games, if I hadn't ever read a wolf chat, I doubt I'd have improved nearly as much as I did... which wasn't a great deal, but not bad for a 'tarded monkey. If not for a sense of improvement, I wouldn't keep playing.

If not for reading any prior wolf chats, I seriously doubt I win my first game as W.

[OngBonga]

fwiw my position is that I can see both sides, but ultimatey I err on the side of wolves having the right to veto, simply because if we default to an open den, then a wolf who objects can refuse to post in the QT. It just creates more problems than it solves.

To emphasise this point, as soon as this game was over, I deleted the bookmark to the den. I can't share it even if I wanted to, I'd need someone else to share the link with me for me to do so.

So suck it. Honestly, I can't be doing with this. Haven't you people got more important things to worry about?

[MadMojoMonkey]

@ong: I don't think anyone is asking for this game's wolf chat to be shared.

We're just discussing the ramifications of changing a long-standing tradition.

[OngBonga]

Yeah I know noone has actually asked a wolf to post the link, and I must say credit is due to drew for not dropping it even though he disagrees with rilla's position.

idk, on the one hand I think rilla is being stubborn, but on the other hand I respect his right to feel this way. If we say that the den is going to be released at end of game, maybe rilla doesn't feel that he can truly express himself as a wolf. Or maybe he does so and feels the need to delete every post he made before it goes public. Or maybe he just goes "fuck QT, let's pm". These risks aren't worth taking for the sake of "entertainment". Just let wolves be wolves, and if noone objects, enjoy your read. On the rare occasion someone does object, repsect that opinion and forget about it.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Ultimately, my position is that this was baudib's game, and whatever baudib wants is fine.

Also, rilla is cool , so if he wants to be all shy about his wolf chat, that's also cool. My original position is that if a friend asks for a favor, I do my best to do it for them. That's one thing friends do for each other.

Also:

a500lbgorila? More like aN00bgorila.



One more benefit of friendship.

[OngBonga]

As much as I repsect rilla's right to veto, I also respect the right of a fellow wolf or the mod to say "fuck you" and post it anyway. I'm down with anarchy. Only, I'd then respect rilla's right to policy vig the fucker who stuck their fingers up to him.

[baudib]

You're not getting the wolf den. This is not even a discussion. It was decided over a week ago.

arguments that villagers have some right to see it is BS. You guys are ridiculous. GFY

[OngBonga]

baudib can you pm me the den link so I can refuse to link it even though I can? Cheers.

[OngBonga]

Actually, I could trawl through my history. Don't worry about it, I still technically have access.

[MadMojoMonkey]

You're not getting the wolf den.

No one's asking for it.

This is not even a discussion.

Agreed.

It was decided over a week ago.

OK.

arguments that villagers have some right to see it is BS.

Thank you for opinion.

You guys are ridiculous.

This matches with my observations, too.

GFY

Daily.

[OngBonga]

Twice daily here.

Speaking of which, I wonder if there's any new Japanese vids today.

[wufwugy]

arguments that villagers have some right to see it is BS.

no less of a right than anybody has to deny it.

when did this stuff become more about how people feel and less about the actual logic? the assessment that an unreavealed den helps the wolves is simply not accurate. the assessment that an unrevealed den is better for the game is not accurate. the assessment that an unrevealed den is logically consistent with the other established rules is not accurate.

if you want to start calling things bs, the REAL bs is the decision to overrule a tradition we've had for years that the majority likes and looks forward to. when rilla asked for what he did, you say "can't do it this game because it would be unfair to everybody else who are already operating under the assumption that it will be done. let's talk about it after the game and see if we can get a policy change". that position is the not bs one. dont blow smoke up our asses by acting like because the decision was made it is somehow wrong to disagree with it.

[OngBonga]

no less of a right than anybody has to deny it.

Do you have the right to force either the mod or a wolf to provide you with the link?

[OngBonga]

Let me put that another way...

Do other people have an obligation to indulge you in your imaginary rights?

[OngBonga]

I honestly do not care if the den gets shared or not. But the idea that it's a god given right for everyone to see it is quite frankly ludicrous.

I received private messages off a wolf this game. Do you want to see those too?

[wufwugy]

Do you have the right to force either the mod or a wolf to provide you with the link?

i already have the link. aubrey sent it to me as soon as she saw the game was over. i havent read it and im not going to because im not typically interested in den chat.

i debated sending it to gabe since he's clearly upset, but ultimately keeping secrets and going behind closed doors causes more problems


and no i dont have the right to force any of this stuff. im not forcing anything. im showing why the reasons given for wanting the den private are wrong reasons in hopes that we can avoid these problems in the future.

how privileged you and i are that we have access to something most of the other players do not. what a wonderful way to keep a tight group of internet gaming friends together.

[wufwugy]

I honestly do not care if the den gets shared or not. But the idea that it's a god given right for everyone to see it is quite frankly ludicrous.

I received private messages off a wolf this game. Do you want to see those too?

nobody has expressed a right to anything. we're interested in fairness and health and enjoyment.

[gabe]

one thing we have at ftr is the baud - ong - wuf triangle


it's a force that moves games. threads tremble when their posts collide

[MadMojoMonkey]

I received private messages off a wolf this game. Do you want to see those too?

This sounds dangerously close to "discussing the game outside of the designated game threads."

...unless the PMs only happened to come from a wolf in this game and were, in fact, totally unrelated.

-.-

[BankItDrew]

other wolves should always overrule BID anyway and tell him what to post instead.

I feel like the best way I help people is by being a punching bag.

So be it. If it helps you - It makes me happy.

[BankItDrew]

Sorry I'm being a cunt

Yeah, me too. But it's okay now because after this post, we're even.

lynch me D1 for the next year. You're in the wrong

You don't get to decide mid game what the villagers get to see, after they expect to see it once entering the game.

Providing the den thread has become standard. I don't give a fuck what other sites do, it doesn't fucking matter. As far as I'm concerned, FTR sets the WW precedence for all other WW games. We're used to doing things a certain way. I have no problems with changes, so long as those changes are not decided MID GAME.

[BankItDrew]

Baudib... Come on man. Really?

[BankItDrew]

Pretty disgusting that moderators now have final say in this matter.

[BankItDrew]

As much as I repsect rilla's right to veto, I also respect the right of a fellow wolf or the mod to say "fuck you" and post it anyway. I'm down with anarchy. Only, I'd then respect rilla's right to policy vig the fucker who stuck their fingers up to him.

You respect a lot. I get that. I respect it.

[BankItDrew]

Pretty hard to do what you think it right when a mod disagrees with you.

Particularly when that which you believe is stated nowhere in the terms of service.

It just happens to be an opinion of a mod.

I can't say I'm surprised tho because this mod has talked a lot of negative shit about me unprovoked.

[baudib]

Drew, what part of "the wolf den is not being made public" do you not understand?

[BankItDrew]

Unless this new policy was mentioned before the game started, idgaf

i suggest you vote

[baudib]

The decision was made, it was announced multiple times. There's no discussion.

[BankItDrew]

I honestly do not care if the den gets shared or not. But the idea that it's a god given right for everyone to see it is quite frankly ludicrous.

I received private messages off a wolf this game. Do you want to see those too?

I'm incredibly curious as to which one of my teammates PM'd one of my other teammates?

Damn straight this should be public. At the very least, how the fuck do I not know about this? Wtf is the den for?

[BankItDrew]

This game turned into a joke. WP baudib. Will not forget.

[BankItDrew]

Yeah I'd delete the poll thread too if I was baudib. That's what baudib would do.

[baudib]

The poll is meaningless because no one's opinion counts.

[baudib]

The decision to make not the wolf den public was made before the game. All of the wolves were privy to the discussion and none objected. Moderator decisions are final.

The fact that members of the wolf team tried to make the thread available is not acceptable and it is frankly astonishing that anyone would think this it is.

The wolf den will never be made public, there won't be any discussion or debate or polls.

I suggest you all stop acting like children and move on with your lives.

[gabe]

Pretty disgusting that moderators now have final say in this matter.

if you are disgusted then you are taking this too seriously

The fact that members of the wolf team tried to make the thread available is not acceptable and it is frankly astonishing that anyone would think this it is.

The wolf den will never be made public, there won't be any discussion or debate or polls.

I suggest you all stop acting like children and move on with your lives.

you are taking this too seriously

[gabe]

this game, i took great pleasure in not counter claimining. i could picture the wolves in the den being tortured by this. i was expecting some satisfaction from reading den posts like "god damn backup poisoner didnt counter claim!"

if a wolf could just copy a sentence or two that captured this sentiment i would be happy. you can even make up a sentence. i dont care at all about the strategery that goes on in there.

also an idea would be to release wolf den threads like 6 months after the game

also if its possible to delete the QT thread i would bet a lot at 2:1 that baudib did that

[MadMojoMonkey]

Drew, what part of "the wolf den is not being made public" do you not understand?

baudib, what part of, "People are OK with this as a 1-off, but adamantly not OK with it as a policy" do you not understand?

What part of, "We all think it's fun to read the wolf-chat and we were expecting to do that" is so hard to figure out?

What part of, "It's a bit messed up that an opinion has blind-sided our expectations, and prevents us from doing something we were looking forward to," is unexpected by you?

The poll is meaningless because no one's opinion counts.

This. Well, almost... The only opinion that truly counts is that of the game's mod. The mod may take a poll to gauge interest, but it is ultimately the sole decision of the mod.

It has always been the game's mod who makes the final decision on all game-related matters. At least, it has for as long as I've been playing here.

EVEN IF we had a written policy that FTR wolf-chat is shared after the games are over, EVEN THEN it would still be OK for any game to deviate from the norm.

The decision to make not the wolf den public was made before the game. All of the wolves were privy to the discussion and none objected. Moderator decisions are final.

I bet this entire discussion is shorter and has a dramatically different tone if this information was known by all players before the game.

The fact that members of the wolf team tried to make the thread available is not acceptable and it is frankly astonishing that anyone would think this it is.

-.-
I'm calling BS.
This is the internet. baudib is not very 'tarded.
There is 0 chance baudib is astonished.

The wolf den will never be made public, there won't be any discussion or debate or polls.

I suggest you all stop acting like children and move on with your lives.

Now you're being a jerk.

You don't get to decide what other people discuss.

Stop being a jerk.

[Luco]

Whatevs

My interest in den threads is basically 'what did they say about meeeeeee' so I dont particularly care

[MadMojoMonkey]

I didn't notice that BID actually created a poll about this game's wolf chat in the WW forum.

@BID: That's getting pretty close to mod-bullying (game mod), and I agree with baudib's choice as an FTR mod to delete the thread.

If the poll was about FTR wolf chats, in general, and not this specific game, then it'd be different.

[a500lbgorilla]

I agree with this compromise. If someone can't agree to this or can't come up with a different compromise - gfy

As far as how upset I am that I can't share the den like I wanted to and planned on doing going into the game - I've never been this upset.

Pretty much my whole point. I'm a firm believer that people are sensitive to their audience. I don't want the Den thread's audience to be everyone every time. If it can be used by the wolves, I want them to be able to use it without consideration for the future.

[OngBonga]

I'm incredibly curious as to which one of my teammates PM'd one of my other teammates?

Damn straight this should be public. At the very least, how the fuck do I not know about this? Wtf is the den for?

Haha I just said that to stir more shit. Aubrey sent me a pm with some music links, it was nothing to do with wolfing. But y'know, even then, there's actually nothing wrong with wolves talking in private.

[a500lbgorilla]

Whatevs

My interest in den threads is basically 'what did they say about meeeeeee' so I dont particularly care

You were on my mind all day and all night.

[a500lbgorilla]

i had so much tension this game since 2 wolves claimed my role and i fought the urge to counter claim for so long. in my head, one of the payoffs to doing this was getting to see the wolf thread and how they squirmed. if i had died day 1 i wouldnt care as much.

mostly i agree with batm. "they lost, we won, who gives a hoot whatever they said in there"

BUT i'm still arguing because i think rilla's side is just straight up wrong. i cant believe how many posts wuf has made that i agree with every word. ive never agreed with wuf so much on a page of a werewolf game, and probably never will again. i could quote 50 of his sentences and add "QFT"

i think the "hide the den" position is wrong. the argument is that there is privileged information in there, that, when shared, hurts the future wolves. there are two problems with this, and they have already been pointed out, but i feel like i also have to type it out

1) it's not actually secret info. 6 regs know everything that went down in there. the rest of us dont
2) anything you want to keep secret in there is NOT ACTUALLY USEFUL.

i wanted to see it for entertainment value. i think most everyone wants to see it for entertainment value. there is only educational value for the most inexperienced of players, of which i see NONE around here

the two wuf points that i would like to endorse :
1) rilla is trying to solve his wolf problem by picking at irrelevant things
2) the wolf thread doesn't actually have any special information. any sweet wolf tactic you created and put in there is, in all likelihood, not unique or special. even if it was, the tactic would/should only be useful for the exact situation/context you applied it in.

1) I never said I was solving a problem. The purpose of the Den thread is not for post game decompression. The mere fact that the Den thread will be released alters its use. BID has said as much, Gator has said as much, it's a point that can't be disagreed with.

2) Yeah, it doesn't demand this level of protection because not that much stuff goes on in Den threads and I don't expect that to change. But I'm still an advocate for these things because they improve the health of the wolves.

Also, the counter points have been made by everyone are essentially: but I wanna see it. Your entire position is that you suffered this game and want to be rewarded for it. Luco said, and I agree, the Den thread is pretty much just to alt-f your name through. I think this should change.

[a500lbgorilla]

As to one of rilla's points...

The entire purpose of the wolf thread is to facilitate more effective communication amongst the wolves (and mod). It wouldnt exist but for this purpose. Its also a lot like Attorney Client privilege, where privacy is essential to the communication at all. If someone was afraid of his secrets getting out...there isnt much incentive for him to share those secrets in a den that would later be revealed. It'd be like if everything the client told the attorney was revealed post trial.

Dead threads are a different can of worms though. Those came about to keep players entertained while waiting for the game to finish. The only reason those are private is because there could be potential spoilers/clues within them that could ruin the current game. Once that possibility is removed, the thread need no longer be private.

So polished.

[a500lbgorilla]

Completely separately from the actual discussion at hand:

Why is it that only rilla's opinion matters as far as the chat being hidden, whereas BID's opinion that he want's the chat shared is not equally valid? Both were wolves. Both are equally passionate. What is the missing factor which chooses which opinion dominates?

I have a few half thoughts but I'd hear you out first.

[OngBonga]

drew's opinion is valid. But drew I guess doesn't want to go against rilla's wishes, even though he disagrees. That's a credible position imo. If I were so against rilla's position, I think this discussion would have long ago turned into rilla telling me I'm a cunt.

[MadMojoMonkey]

There are other counter-points. I think you're missing some of the less entitled responses.

1) It adds a layer of fun to the post-game.

2) The strategies employed by wolves have changed over time, and have not become static, despite this open info.

3) It makes learning the game more fun and inviting for (at least some) new players.

4) It improves the skillset of (at least some) future wolves to study the past threads.

[OngBonga]

It's also possible that drew is just trolling much the same as I am. Maybe he cares equally as much as I do, but is enjoying the shit slinging.

[a500lbgorilla]

There are other counter-points. I think you're missing some of the less entitled responses.

1) It adds a layer of fun to the post-game.

2) The strategies employed by wolves have changed over time, and have not become static, despite this open info.

3) It makes learning the game more fun and inviting for (at least some) new players.

4) It improves the skillset of (at least some) future wolves to study the past threads.

2 hasn't happened.

1 I think should be sacrified.

3 is a good point.

And 4, it has only improved the skillset of the villagers.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I have a few half thoughts but I'd hear you out first.

I don't see the connection between this post and the one you quoted.

What are the answers to the questions I posed?

I.e.: What rule is being used to resolve the conflict between two players on the same team who want something different?

If it's as simple as, "rilla's the WW forum mod, and BID is not, so rilla gets what he wants," then I am disappointed, but at least I understand.

[OngBonga]

You respect a lot. I get that. I respect it.

Respect.

[a500lbgorilla]

I don't see the connection between this post and the one you quoted.

What are the answers to the questions I posed?

I.e.: What rule is being used to resolve the conflict between two players on the same team who want something different?

If it's as simple as, "rilla's the WW forum mod, and BID is not, so rilla gets what he wants," then I am disappointed, but at least I understand.

I have a few thoughts to answer your question, but I'd like to hear what you suspect the answer to be.

[OngBonga]

If it's as simple as, "rilla's the WW forum mod, and BID is not, so rilla gets what he wants," then I am disappointed, but at least I understand.

I don't think mod status has any part of this discussion whatsoever. That's not what's going on here. If it were aubrey who wanted to keep her wolfing private, I'd feel exactly the same about it and I assume everyone else would. That it's rilla and not aubrey is irrelevant.

[MadMojoMonkey]

2 hasn't happened.

1 I think should be sacrificed.

3 is a good point.

And 4, it has only improved the skillset of the villagers.

On 1 and 2, I am willing to experiment around and see what the overall effect is after, say a dozen games or so, to get a more informed opinion.

I feel sure that we're not using the same terms in the same way for #2. I've seen a lot of variation from different wolf teams over time.

Number 4 is certainly true for me. I don't see how I win my first wolf game without having ever read a wolf chat. Noob wolves usually win because it's their first or second game and they can play the "what's going on, guys?" card all game, and then slip in some "good reads" to get by. By my first wolf game, I had played over a dozen games as VV. I had only my reading of wolf chats to put me in the head-space of a wolf before that. I'm certain I would have played worse if not for the practice.

[a500lbgorilla]

Your 4 is a 3. And I'd love to justify a concern for new players, but I rather think we need to focus on making better wolves out of the lot we've got.

[baudib]

I made a decision at the behest of one player that came about after much discussion and no one else disagreed with. What else should I do other than everything I can to honor that agreement?

Drew is a weeping man child who posted the link unilaterally and tried to create a poll about it. He's been spanked and put to bed.

i mean obviously you guys can discuss whatever you want but the thread is not getting outed.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I have a few thoughts to answer your question, but I'd like to hear what you suspect the answer to be.

No, I will not blindly speculate as to what makes one wolf's opinion more important than another wolf's opinion in baudib's mind.

I can assume that you have a reason why your opinion matters more than BID's.
I can assume BID has a reason why his opinion matters at least as much as yours.

I know JKDS weighed in on what he would do in baudib's position.

I am curious as to what swayed baudib's mind, though.
What is the guideline which he used to determine which of these two disagreeing parties wins out?

***
I find it notable that you were playing as a wolf this game. I would find your arguments significantly more compelling if this were not the case. I.e. if you were a villager this game and you were making the request to keep the wolf chat private, then I would not find your own arguments to - at least some degree - stem from a position of entitlement.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I made a decision at the behest of one player that came about after much discussion and no one else disagreed with. What else should I do other than everything I can to honor that agreement?

If BID never spoke up that he was so passionate about having the wolf chat revealed until after the decision was made, then 'nuff said on the topic.

I thought BID was so adamantly opposed throughout the discussion, from prior to game start.

[a500lbgorilla]

No, I will not blindly speculate as to what makes one wolf's opinion more important than another wolf's opinion in baudib's mind.

I can assume that you have a reason why your opinion matters more than BID's.
I can assume BID has a reason why his opinion matters at least as much as yours.

I know JKDS weighed in on what he would do in baudib's position.

I am curious as to what swayed baudib's mind, though.
What is the guideline which he used to determine which of these two disagreeing parties wins out?

***
I find it notable that you were playing as a wolf this game. I would find your arguments significantly more compelling if this were not the case. I.e. if you were a villager this game and you were making the request to keep the wolf chat private, then I would not find your own arguments to - at least some degree - stem from a position of entitlement.

Really?

Your question wasn't a question at all, then.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Your 4 is a 3. And I'd love to justify a concern for new players, but I rather think we need to focus on making better wolves out of the lot we've got.

No, it's not.

Fun and inviting is not equal to educational.

[OngBonga]

Wait drew posted the link?

haha and here's me saying fair play to him for not doing so.

[a500lbgorilla]

No, it's not.

Fun and inviting is not equal to educational.

Did you hate this game? Did you hate this game only because the Den thread wasn't released? What are you even saying?