reads vs. tells: live vs. online poker

[FlyingSaucy]

Here's my poker history regarding getting reads. Anyone else care to ring in on their experiences in live vs online games when getting reads?

Started out playing live games, friendly home games. I learned the basics and a few tricks, etc. At this point just starting out I thought that getting a read on someone primarily involved seeing if you are observant enough to notice their eyelid twitch. You know, if you zoom in close enough at the dude's skin cells, you'll be able to put him on Kc Jd.

As I moved to online poker I found the transition interesting because the monitor ALWAYS stares back at you and doesn't even blink or anything. It is just so dang hard to see tells when playing online. :P

So. I quickly learned to abandon that notion and started watching betting patterns. It's a lot easier to do this online than it is in a live game because the numbers are right in front of you. You don't have to eye up chips and count it out constantly. Playing online actually helps you become a better player quicker, IMO, because it forces you to concentrate solely on betting patterns and the numbers involved, which is the key to getting good reads.

Now my story. Last week I played a live game, where there was a guy who was obviously watching for tells. I noticed because he would never watch as the flop comes, and would always be looking at folks as they checked their cards, etc. Now I've read Caro and decided to screw with him. It was beautiful. After I busted him out he was talking about how he made good folds and how I just had the better hand every time and there's nothing he could have done. And I, of course, let him go on believing that since I'm sure I'll play him again. Here's the last hand..

Me UTG with KQ
him in late position.
He calls, I put a 1x raise. BB folds. He calls my raise.
Flop is Q95 rainbow. I put in a 1/2 pot sized bet and stare at him. He calls. Turn is K. I hesitate, scratch my face, look at his chips, put in another 1/2 pot bet out and he raises me all in (afterward he admitted it was because he thought i was bluffing from my body language.) My only worry is trip 9's or 5's, but I decide to call because he didnt raise me on the flop, plus I've got plenty to cover him. He turns over QT, on a straight draw with middle pair against my top two pair. River is rag. Later he said he actually put me on a bluff with AJ. I asked him how he could be so sure and he just shrugged. If he would have just paid attention to my betting I think he would have come to a different conclusion.

Any stories or thoughts on what you can learn from ignoring or not ignoring physical "tells" is encouraged.

[FlyingSaucy]

Hmmm.
May want to move it to the beginners circle or tales of poker. Dont worry, I won't cry.

[MyRedemption]

not a bad story, but you can't always count on that, and may very well get pegged doing it. If you read caro you'd remember the section covering people trying to do just what you pulled off, and a lot of players would notice it and call it out. I do agree with your betting patterns comment. I did simmilarly, but you can't rule out body tells either, the combination of both is the best. It also helps to have a natural knack at it, trust your instincts and follow a few hands, maybe you just can get in the head of some opponents and understand them. I have a reputation that actually precedes me now about reading people. At least for my school i'm quite good at it, strongest part of my game it seems, and it came from practice, noticing patterns online (look at response times too) as well as caro's book and my own observations in live play every day with 10 or so guys durring our shared study hall. Keep interested and keep working on it and you will learn to read tells like a book, and if that doesn't help your play theres not much that will

[Chicago_Kid]

I know a guy who always rubs his stubble before calling when he's on a set or better. It's uncanny how consistent he has been after you notice it. Seen him do it 5-6 times---trying to slowplay while feigning a tough call.

One time, after he check/calls my strong bet on the flop while rubbing, I read him for top set--ahead of my two pr. After checking the turn, and having him put out a tempting bet on the river, I folded.

He looked at me incredulously and said "You checked twice after that flop bet--you bluffing?" I said I had two pr, and he said b.s.--so I showed only him. He got so red it was almost scary, just sat there in sullen silence!

Everyone at the table picked up on that, and yelled at me to show (show 1, show all house rule--darn it), so I did. They all thought I was a moron, and started berating the other guy to tell his hand---HE WOULDN'T FESS UP! But after that, he steamed something awful. SO fun...one of my proudest moments in poker to-date.

However, I think these are few and far between, and I think the betting patterns are more consistently telling. I'm working on these as they're tougher for me...LOL

[dalecooper]

I think a lot of wannabe Caros out there try to rely on tells, but don't actually know that much about them. I do have a friend who reads people with uncanny accuracy, but it's as much betting patterns as tells, I think. Personally I am more in tune to bets, although I've read Caro and taken copious notes.

I play with a couple of guys who constantly talk about everyone else's tells. Not what they are, specifically, but comments like "Ooh, there's his Oreo!" - which lets you know that these guys have seen Rounders one too many times. The funny thing is, despite their wonderful knowledge of tells, both of these guys are chronic losers in our tournaments. I have outlasted both of them in the last five tournaments we played, although I am apparently just oozing with really obvious tells.

[pokerfanatic]

Caro, his nick name really says it all "the mad genius of poker". When Caro said if the game is straight up he can win every time he wasn't joking. I play a lot of poker I know what tells are and I always am looking for one that is constant to a player, I’m also always trying to figure out what type of player they are, with those two combined and figured out most players don't really stand a chance, once you have been marked say tight and they have a tell say when your bluffing, is there anyway you can win in that game? Spotting a tell is one aspect I have focused on for awhile now, I’m getting quicker and bettor at it, I’m also improving my quickness on the type of players I am playing... typically live I play with a lot of loose players bout online it is always changing, so playing online I have sharpened my reads, my quickness at the style of each player. Once I read Caro’s book I became dangerous enough to start winning in live games on a regular basis. So I noticed someone say something about a lot of Caro wannabes, why is that a bad thing if they want to be as good at it as him? Personally I sit and study people playing, even if I’m not in the game. I deal cards a lot make money doing it though tips, as I’m dealing I watch each players movements and look for tells, once I get enough tips a lot of times I’ll hope in the game and actually double my profits because I have gotten so much information for free while I was dealing, I simply say "here guys I’ll give you a chance to win your tips back" and then usually walk away with more of there money. So if you can get a read one player while you’re not in a hand why wouldn’t you take this and use it for your advantage? I actually watch people play online to try to sharpen my reads on what they might have. going that extra step could improve your game... So IMO why not want to aspire to be like Caro? Till next time regards pokerfanatic…

[dalecooper]

So I noticed someone say something about a lot of Caro wannabes, why is that a bad thing if they want to be as good at it as him?

Shoulda been more clear. I was referring to people who fixate on tells but haven't actually read Caro, and/or don't work on other aspects of their game. Tells in live games are useful, for sure; but guys who sit around talking about tells like they know something you don't, yet still make stupid bets and chase pipe dream draws, aren't good players. The one time per night that they see what they think is your tell and save themselves a couple dollars does not make up for all their bad poker plays... not to mention the times you throw them a little fake tell and they do exactly what you want them to do.

In short, reading Caro and knowing tells is great. It will improve your game. But being good at the game itself is more important, and analyzing betting patterns and the types of players is more important too. Tells to me is third or fourth on the list of things to learn, and then should only be used to augment a solid game that is already well-polished. And also, if you're going to act like tells are the be-all and end-all, you better know your tells inside and out. Don't whisper conspiratorially about other player's tells and then go out first in the tournament... just makes ya look bad.

[Chicago_Kid]

I think reads is such an art that for many, betting and gestures blend together.

I would imagine many players just get a feel for a read, and can't tell you what tipped them off. I don't like this, 'cause I'd rather say, it was 'X' that tipped me...almost never happens.

Perhaps this is different for different people, but when I've made some solid reads (again, few and far between as I generally play tight and don't gamble to gamble), I just have a feeling that something isn't right, but cannot put a finger on it. Generally though, I don't put my bankroll on this "feeling".

I have to work at both separately and take specific notes on people after a session to build reads.

[pokerfanatic]

Both very well put, sometimes the tells are so simple that you can actually say "X" tipped me off to your hand or whatever, other players you have to dig a little deeper to find it but if it's constant then you can say "X" tipped me off. For instance I have a typical betting pattern that I usually bet with and I take the same amount of time between betting and checking every time, so if I screw from that it was a tell to my friend (I changed my routine), so he said something about my beating made it not fell right, so I mean this is something week players might not even pick up but he saw it so it's a tell and he was right I was on a shitty hand. Thus to say I changed right after that... So I mean it might be a few things that tipped you off but if you can put them into words you could easily say it was "X1, X2, and X3" that made me fell that you had "X" hand. You're right in saying that some people think they know tells without reading Caro’s books/ articles. These guys have some clue but how good are they? I would want to know if they could pick up a tell off me and if it was accurate because I often manipulate tells to try to trap people in, or make them fold depending on what kind of player they are, it's simple using the knowledge about the other players games and what they know can help you out play them IMO. So my live game is highly based on tells/ fell of the hand, i know the stats but a lot of the time I play off feel... developing the "feel" is something that i like to work on a lot if I’m in a game or just watching.