SB/BB better position than UTG?

[Fnord]

Been thinking more and more about position lately. Here's a crazy theory.

The SB or BB (after the SB folds) are pretty good positions and far supperior to UTG, which is the WORST position at the table. This even applies to post-flop play.

Discuss...

[michael1123]

Haha, since its your theory, shouldn't you describe why you believe this?

But ok. Generally, I agree with you. Personally, as a big or small blind in the pot, I barely ever make a bet immediately on the flop, no matter what I hit. I check whether I hit or miss, largely since no one expects a blind to hit a hand (unless its all rags, where I'm more likely to bet with any pair, or on a complete bluff).

Its pretty unlikely with 4+ players in a hand that everyone will check at the flop. So in my blinds position, if I hit a big hand on the flop, I'm looking to check raise. Also, by checking immediately, you kind of put yourself in position to act last (if someone else bets). You can see who bets, how much they bet, who calls, who folds, and then make your determination of how to play from there.

The under the gun player is expected to have a strong hand, so if a good flop hits (especially with a draw), planning to check raise isn't a good idea, as a draw is likely to take a free card, in case you're trapping him. So the under the gun position is often the guy that's in the position of betting first, which really serves the blinds well, as they are then last to act after the bet.

[fishstick]

interesting point.

looking at my poker tracker SNG info, my two "winningest" positions are:

- the BB, slightly better than the button
- the SB, 3.5 X what i've won from the BB

i filtered out my heads-up SNG's as i knew they would skew things.

i knew i was doing better from the blinds, but didn't realize the SB was so much stronger. i play virtually zilch UTG.

also interesting, with the exception of QQ a couple of times, the hands i'm playing from the blinds are not premium hands.

a theory - they are the winningest positions (at least for me) because unless a lot of limpers have stayed in the hand and i have a premium hand (QQ and above), i tend not to raise from the blinds so as to not re-open betting. this allows for bigger pots when i do hit my hand.

thoughts?

[Fnord]

looking at my poker tracker SNG info, my two "winningest" positions are:

- the BB, slightly better than the button
- the SB, 3.5 X what i've won from the BB

Before or after accounting for the blind chips? What's your sample size? If you count the money spent on blinds, I find that in cash games the button and cut-off are by far the most profitable. Perhaps you're playing too tight from the CO/Button?

[michael1123]

I left out the most obvious advantage of the blinds in my last post.

Of course, the blinds get the HUGE advantage preflop of being last to act, even if they do have forced bets. If you have a hand like TT or JJ for example, under the gun, you're likely going to want to make a sizeable bet. Now if one person shoves all in and another (or 2 or 3) call, you're likely going to want to dump your hand here. In the blinds, you can see these people going all in, and just lose the much smaller amount of the blinds by folding here.

Or, to your advantage with a hand like TT or JJ in the blinds, this time you might just see 1-3 limpers in the pot. Shoving all in now seems like a decent decision (if its late in a tourney and the blinds are big), as you aren't very likely to get a call, and with the limpers, at worst its a coin flip if they call, and its possibly better (a limper could have A9s, an underpair, etc.). Whereas, in the same hand UTG, you could make a solid raise, get too many callers, and have overcards on the flop.

So there is a much bigger advantage for the blinds preflop over UTG. But there may be an advantage post flop as well. In any case, UTG certainly doesn't have enough of an advantage post flop over the blinds to outway the huge advantage the blinds have preflop. So yes, I'd definitely say overall that UTG is in a much worse position than the blinds.

[Fnord]

Also consider, in a 3 or 4 (or more!) way pot, would you rather be the first or second player to act?

[Humphrind]

Been thinking more and more about position lately. Here's a crazy theory.

The SB or BB (after the SB folds) are pretty good positions and far supperior to UTG, which is the WORST position at the table. This even applies to post-flop play.

Discuss...

I can see why one would say this. As 1st position, you get to act last on the pre-flop round. Which is a superior. You also have money invested into the pot. You can see more flops and therefore possibly catch your 'unplayable' cards on the flop.

Post-flop you have the first option to check, and examine the rest of the tables moves. Basically taking the button away from the button.

However, I are you suggesting that SB is better than the button?

[Fnord]

However, are you suggesting that SB is better than the button?

No. Just further realizing how much UTG sucks.

[fishstick]

looking at my poker tracker SNG info, my two "winningest" positions are:

- the BB, slightly better than the button
- the SB, 3.5 X what i've won from the BB

Before or after accounting for the blind chips? What's your sample size? If you count the money spent on blinds, I find that in cash games the button and cut-off are by far the most profitable. Perhaps you're playing too tight from the CO/Button?

this is after accounting for blind chips and looking at ~1200 SNG hands. just glancing at my CO/button hands, it doesn't appear that i'm playing to tight from these positions, but i will be keeping an eye on it.

i'll be curious to see what it looks like at 12,000 hands.

[Fnord]

Yeah, 1.2k is way too small of a sample size. I remember that at around that point for Limit AA was either a loser or break even and I was making the most money from my BB. By the time I hit 10k I could see the numbers approaching reason, but still full of small oddities.

[Yeah]

I agree that the blinds are a way better position than UTG. It just sucks when you hit a good flop in NL with your junk in the BB, and you don't know what to do.

Eg. (You are the BB)

you have T6, 3 callers

Flop comes K T 6,

It's bet and reraised before you act?? That kinda sucks.

Anyways, I like the BB for bluffing oppurtunities when all rags hit on the flop. Most players have this concept: to put the BB on all rags all the time. I think that is because we(or atleast me) always say to myself "Why do I ALWAYS get rags when I am in the BB" when I get the rags in the BB. Oh, and the fact that we (or atleast me) pretty much forget the good hands in the BB. So, I have a tendancy to put other people on rags.

Ok, enough rambling
Anyways, I found this to work well in the BB.

[fishstick]

Yeah, 1.2k is way too small of a sample size. I remember that at around that point for Limit AA was either a loser or break even and I was making the most money from my BB. By the time I hit 10k I could see the numbers approaching reason, but still full of small oddities.

it just dawned on me that even though i excluded 1 on 1 SNG's, there are still many hands of 4 and under play in a regular SNG. when you take blind defense, the size of the blinds, and the size of the later pots into account, i can see why there would be a bias toward the blinds, rather than the button or CO.

at my age, it takes me awhile to get to these conclusions (jm?).

[jmrogers7]

at my age, it takes me awhile to get to these conclusions (jm?).

You know, if you would just get yourself one of those little pillboxes I think everything would be OK. I know at your age that it's tough to remember to take your medication.

[fishstick]

at my age, it takes me awhile to get to these conclusions (jm?).

You know, if you would just get yourself one of those little pillboxes I think everything would be OK. I know at your age that it's tough to remember to take your medication.

oh crap! i think i just took wednesday's meds!

[heatman]

I agree that UTG is the worst position, both before and after the flop. Some additional reasons:

1. Acting first or last both have advantages post-flop, and UTG rarely is either. He's always in the middle.
2. If I get good cards UTG and raise - the raise either gets way too much respect (ie steals blinds) or none at all (5 callers). The later I get to act pre-flop, the better chance I have of getting the number of callers I want.
3. Raising with a mediocre hand (say KQ) seems very likely to end up with me being isolated by Ax.

As a result I play squeaky tight from UTG. It is a money maker for me (as is BB).

[Humphrind]

Fnord -

I'm noticing you are right about UTG being so bad. Last night in a tournament, I got a couple of good hands in UTG. (pocket Ts, AJs) I felt that my position made my hands worse and I ended up folding both of them post-flop, but not before investing too much money into them. I realized about the position and I thought of this post.

I felt I could have done a lot better with these hands if I had been in a different position. Even SB or BB would have helped.

[Fnord]

I'm noticing you are right about UTG being so bad. Last night in a tournament, I got a couple of good hands in UTG. (pocket Ts, AJs)

Folding pocket Tens UTG??? Wow, that's tight...

[Humphrind]

Folding pocket Tens UTG??? Wow, that's tight...

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I folded them post-flop. The board came out AQ3 all suited, and I didn't have that suit. I don't remember exactly. Bad board, heavy betting and I layed them down. The point was, had I been in another position, I felt I could have seen enough to make a good lay down and paid a lot less in the process. Even SB would have given me that position advantage.

[Fnord]

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I folded them post-flop. The board came out AQ3 all suited, and I didn't have that suit. I don't remember exactly. Bad board, heavy betting and I layed them down. The point was, had I been in another position, I felt I could have seen enough to make a good lay down and paid a lot less in the process. Even SB would have given me that position advantage.

Did you take a stab at it? How many saw the flop?

That's one of those flops you don't want to touch with a ten foot pole...

[Toasty]

I'm going to come down on the side of UTG opposed to he blinds. My reasons are :

1 UTG doesn't have any forced bets.

2 SB/BB have forced bets.

3 UTG doesn't have any forced bets

PT actually shows UTG as the most profitable position for me (or one of the most), but I play 6max. The blinds just plain suck, being forced to bet a big blind with 72os is just sick :P

6max games are strange though as the positions are only UTG UTG+1 CO Button SB BB. So even UTG is similar to Middle position in a full game with how many players are left to act.

This is my Limit SH perspective.

[Humphrind]

I wanted to dig this thread up and tie it in with another thread.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=1671

Fishy posted his tournament results by position. It shows that of all the positions, SB has the biggest loss, followed by BB.

I'm curious to see others Poker Tracker results. I think it may help to prove what position is best / worst.