Learning to Lay Down a Strong Hand is Important?

[fsg03]

I was at the sands in Atlantic City this weekend, playing $100 minimum buy in NO-LIMIT blinds $1-$2. First let me tell you I am a tight player. I am dealt A K unsuited one off the button. i have two limpers before me.
I raise to $12. First limper folds. Next limper looks back down at his hand ponders and raises me to $30. I look at him and puts his head down very weak looking. I reach for my chips then muck flipping over my Blick Slick. The guy next to me calls me dumb. AND THE LIMPER THROWS POCKET ROCKETS AT HIM. Regardless of now knowing he had aces do you think i made the right move?

[Fnord]

Showing the table you were capable of mucking Big Slick pre-flop may have been a bad move, depending on table image, etc. Otherwise sounds like a great move to me. Lots of solid player and betting pattern reading there.

[fishstick]

you trusted your instincts and were right.

good call.

[fsg03]

I thought showing was a bad move to FNORD. Until every time i raised people put me on a strong Poket Pair. This one lady next to me everytime i raise said oh i know you have a strong hand im folding. It work wonders let me bluff when i felt the time was right. For instance about 30 mins later i was dealt 4 4 usually i would limp to try to see a cheap flop and hope for the set. But instead i raised from i off the button and only got one caller. FLOP came 6 6 k button bet 20 and i raised it to 60 he ponder and folded his King face up. I muck my 4's and didnt show them. I made a little over $300 and everytime i raise people were staying away from me. BUT I DO AGREE WITH YOUR TAKE. Usually i never show my cards. But i didnt want this guy to think he could run me over everytime i raised.

[jmrogers7]

Not sure how it could be anything other than a good move. You saved yourself a MINIMUM of $18, you exhibited the ability to read your opponents and I have no problem with the way you bet the hand that you were dealt. Good lay down.

Next limper looks back down at his hand ponders and raises me to $30. I look at him and puts his head down very weak looking.

Pretty telling acting here. Remember, as a general rule of thumb, weak is strong, strong is weak.

[fishstick]

sort of along this thread:

with the exception of the FTR tourney - i never show my cards unless there's a showdown.

my reasoning is: i want to keep people guessing --->"fishstick doesn't play a lot of hands, did he really have something, or was he bluffing?"

keeping in mind that i'm playing mostly SNG's these days, is this a good strategy?

[Humphrind]

Showing the table you were capable of mucking Big Slick pre-flop may have been a bad move, depending on table image, etc.

I've been curious to find what image wins the most money at live games. Would you rather be pegged as a fish or very tight? What table would you like that image at.

I played at a pretty loose table and did a couple of stupid things early to give myself the fish table image. It worked pretty well. But that goes against the adage of playing loose at a tight table and tight at a loose table.

[SecretSquirrel]

A real amateur here, but I agree that's a great question. I would hazard to guess that the loose image is considerably better (Caro thinks so, but he does suggest tight works also in Hold'em). Big hands get far more calls and are far more profitable. There is nothing more frustrating than everyone folding to your nuts. I used to be tight, but I found so many times AA's would make me 75c. One great thing with the aggressor image... is people start thinking you never have a hand.

But can someone steal enough pots with a tight image to make up the difference? So to have a tight image you would have to fold and show some real nice hands at the beginning then play looser later. Hmmm I suppose an objective test could be in order...

Definitely tight image and tight play doesn't work... I think that is the first step up from newbie. Don't flame me, but that's what I have found (I'd be interesting if you agree). Enough dribble from me.

[fishstick]

Definitely tight image and tight play doesn't work... I think that is the first step up from newbie. Don't flame me, but that's what I have found (I'd be interesting if you agree). Enough dribble from me.

flame, flame, flame!!!

my way of welcoming people to the board is to start a Banning Request Form on them - so consider yourself welcomed!

i'm just kidding

i'll sort of disagree with the caveat that i'm talking about party poker and the lower limits (.5/1 and 1/2 limit, $25 NL, $20 and less SNG's) - my experience base.

image just doesn't seem to matter to most of the people i encounter. in other words, they're playing their cards, and that's that. it's like they have blinders on. they don't seem to be taking note of what the other players are doing, threatening flops, turns, river cards, etc. they don't seem to notice when the table rock (who's maybe played 3 hands in an hour) comes out firing. they don't seem fazed when they small bet and you come over the top with a large raise (they just call the raise).

it seems like a lot of these people are just plain oblivious.

good for us.

[SecretSquirrel]

Hello Hmmm yes I do agree, to an extent.

Most of the time people don't notice and I still find myself making stupid moves and justifying them as "advertising". What tripe...

But when you own the table by aggressive play, when you are buying lots of pots and really pushing people, then you get huge payoffs. Like many things there is a critical mass (ugh a cliche, I hate them, but I lack the creativity for original thought). If I pussyfoot (Australian term, imagine a cat tiptoeing, not meant as profanity) around and do a half-hearted attempt to create an image (which is my usual play, I admit) then yes it does nothing for me. But yesterday... it was beautiful... I HAD the image, I was 6 times the max buy in (which offers image in itself) and I pushed and bluffed... everyone noticed. And when I hit nut hands, I never once had someone fold to me . The balance was getting out when they seemed too strong.

But, at the same time, did I notice other peoples images? No, most of them were below the radar, not above that critical mass. One guy was, playing the same game as me. The rest just seemed tight, which is probably a cheaper image to induce, you don't have to risk bluffs to get there.

I really am still so fresh that I'm still trying what works, just 6 hours yesterday playing superaggressive just has me thinking this might be right for me. It was just one of those magic days where you wish you'd found poker ealier.

[fishstick]

But yesterday... it was beautiful... I HAD the image, I was 6 times the max buy in (which offers image in itself) and I pushed and bluffed... everyone noticed. And when I hit nut hands, I never once had someone fold to me . The balance was getting out when they seemed too strong.

in a ring game, this would really get my attention. if you're up that much either you're really good, or a maniac that caught some good cards. most likely, i don't even sit down at your table. but definitely, you get up 6 x buyin in a ring game and people (should) start to pay attention.

I really am still so fresh that I'm still trying what works, just 6 hours yesterday playing superaggressive just has me thinking this might be right for me. It was just one of those magic days where you wish you'd found poker ealier.

it's good to experiment, as well as mix it up. for my SNG's, i'd like to be perceived as tight (but very aggressive when i play a hand) in the early rounds, and blind stealing big stack bully in the later rounds.

[SecretSquirrel]

Hmmm I'm not sure if I'm good, but I am no maniac. I am a mathematician at heart, numers are why I love this game. But I'm finding numbers alone don't cut it. I've only experienced 10c/25c 10 player ring games. So I live in a small world.

Certainly I had luck with me, you can't win without some luck (Johnny Juanda proved that last week), but I did suffer some river beats to the tune of $20, I don't know, I've had luckier nights, but just never won like that so I can only assume it was the aggressive play. But I'm extrapolating from one data point...

Actually I think the answer would be...

"It depends"

[johnnyawe]

you definitely gotta know when to lay down the good hands.

Just last night, I won a huge pot off of somebody who just could not lay down KK, even after I put down a ridiculous bet on the river. I'll try to post the hand history later. It was just a classic example of someone who knew he was beat but could not lay it down.

I also won the biggest pot of my life just last night because of ppl who could not lay down good hands pre-flop. I was playing at a NL $50 table, I had AA and raised big time preflop after someone else put down a substantial raise. One guy responded by going all-in, another guy re-raised all-in, (at least he thought about it for a while). I called (obviously). The first guy had AK, the 2nd guy had QQ. I took the pot to triple my stack.

If I were in your situation, I would have folded too. Even if the other guy only had a low pocket pair, I'd only be about a 50/50 chance, and I don't like risking my whole stack on those odds.

[Xianti]

On a full table, laying down AK to a substantial re-raise pre-flop should not be a difficult decision. It was not only the smart thing, but the correct thing to do, IMHO.

As for other hands that people can't let go of, I lay down AA, KK, QQ, etc., all the time when someone is betting into a flop/turn/river that I know I cannot beat.

[Toasty]

If you are laying them down all the time xanti, you are probably playing a little weak

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[koolmoe]

A real amateur here, but I agree that's a great question. I would hazard to guess that the loose image is considerably better (Caro thinks so, but he does suggest tight works also in Hold'em). Big hands get far more calls and are far more profitable. There is nothing more frustrating than everyone folding to your nuts. I used to be tight, but I found so many times AA's would make me 75c. One great thing with the aggressor image... is people start thinking you never have a hand.

But can someone steal enough pots with a tight image to make up the difference? So to have a tight image you would have to fold and show some real nice hands at the beginning then play looser later. Hmmm I suppose an objective test could be in order...

Definitely tight image and tight play doesn't work... I think that is the first step up from newbie. Don't flame me, but that's what I have found (I'd be interesting if you agree). Enough dribble from me.

I'm not great in ring games, but I've had a bit of success in tournaments. I think the key is to be able to mix up your play a little. Starting out tight in tourneys gives credibility to the bluffs you will have to make later to get into the money. I don't like a loose image in tourneys because I don't want to face too many showdowns early on. Too easy to get rivered on someone's JTo all-in.

In ring games I've always had the most success when I was aggressive, but I invariably run into a situation with a big PP out of position with a smooth caller behind me. I usually lose big in that situation, but I'm learning to balance caution with the nagging feeling of missing bets.

[amtorti]

I was at the sands in Atlantic City this weekend, playing $100 minimum buy in NO-LIMIT blinds $1-$2. First let me tell you I am a tight player. I am dealt A K unsuited one off the button. i have two limpers before me.
I raise to $12. First limper folds. Next limper looks back down at his hand ponders and raises me to $30. I look at him and puts his head down very weak looking. I reach for my chips then muck flipping over my Blick Slick. The guy next to me calls me dumb. AND THE LIMPER THROWS POCKET ROCKETS AT HIM. Regardless of now knowing he had aces do you think i made the right move?

Laying down in this situation (before the flop) depends on the type of player making the bet and your table perception. If you are a tight player, the raiser knows that and tries to push you out, a good strategy that you must consider. The other consideration is the type of player the raiser is. If he habitually calls/raises before the flop then he may be semi-bluffing, (a mid to small pair), or A-K, A-Q, A-J.

You had two other opions, reraise, or call. If you reraise and he folds, you just discovered some great info on the guy. If you reraise and he calls, he doesn't have A-A. He may have a K-K, Q-Q, J-J. IF you reraise and he reraises, you fold. ALthough you may not win the hand, you will get some value from reraise in information on how he plays.

[fishstick]

I was at the sands in Atlantic City this weekend, playing $100 minimum buy in NO-LIMIT blinds $1-$2. First let me tell you I am a tight player. I am dealt A K unsuited one off the button. i have two limpers before me.
I raise to $12. First limper folds. Next limper looks back down at his hand ponders and raises me to $30. I look at him and puts his head down very weak looking. I reach for my chips then muck flipping over my Blick Slick. The guy next to me calls me dumb. AND THE LIMPER THROWS POCKET ROCKETS AT HIM. Regardless of now knowing he had aces do you think i made the right move?

If you reraise and he calls, he doesn't have A-A. He may have a K-K, Q-Q, J-J. IF you reraise and he reraises, you fold. ALthough you may not win the hand, you will get some value from reraise in information on how he plays.

this guy had already demonstrated a propensity for slowplaying rockets - i wouldn't put him past a smooth call if fsg had raised.

i still say good fold.

[SecretSquirrel]

I am still making blatant novice mistakes (most likely because I am one). Last night made this clear. I lost a $15 pot on the river so maybe some tilt here; Next hand AKo. I bet $1, get reraised another $2. I call. Flop nothing, he goes all in
and... I'M EMOTIONALLY ATTACHED TO MY AK :'( I didn't think anything logical i was just thinking, "I've got lots of money in there and big slick!".
I think I will sit on my hands like I used to have to for chess tournaments.

Fortunately the all in call was only $12.
So I should have thought... he reraised me, after a reasonable show of strength. He must figure I have AQ, AK or 10, JJ, QQ and he's willing to bet against this. So I should put him on JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK (maybe this is generous I've seen people all in with 77 and A8, not even as short stack, but this guy seemed reasonable).

The pot is giving me better than 1:2 (with the blinds) i'm ~ 1:2 to hit an pair on the flop. But what if I do? If he's got AK we split, which is then not worth betting 1:2 for in the first place. If he's got KK or AA I lose. If he has QQ or JJ I win, but the chance of this is 2:5 from the possible combinations I've mentioned (AK is 3 times more likely than AA KK and bit less than that over JJ QQ). Even if my A or K comes, he's perfectly set up for a bluff if he has the balls.

So I don't think it was a good call. But if you are curious. He had 10,10. So I think I gave him too much credit, I think he was being as stupid as me preflop. At best he was a coin flip (56% favourite), at worst a sorry underdog (<20%). But I took the that crown post flop . So I'm writing a little check list. That I will use until it becomes second nature. I'm memorise it with mnemonics, since I hate having anything in front of me, I feel it is cheating, because a real casino wouldn't allow it.

1) What do they think I have? Do they think about this?
2) What might they have?
3) What are my outs? How strong are they?
4) What are my pot odds?
5) Am I emotionally attached to these cards?
6) How big is their stack?
7) What are my implied odds?

1) JJ QQ KK AA AK
2) JJ QQ KK AA AK
3) 1:2; A's and K's, not strong enough to call much more than the pot. Maybe reraise a pot bet to retake initiative and test the waters.
4) 1:2
5) Hell yeh, big slick baby, they never lose for me
6) Big enough, I don't want to bet that much.
7) Not great, I'm not goint to put down much even if I hit, for fear of AA, KK.

Anyho, that's enough for me.

[fishstick]

I'M EMOTIONALLY ATTACHED TO MY AK :'( I didn't think anything logical i was just thinking, "I've got lots of money in there and big slick!".

it's saved me, and kicked me in the balls. with AK on a missed flop, if it's checked to me, i usually bet it. if there's a big bet in front of me, i dump it. glad you won the hand.

But if you are curious. He had 10,10. So I think I gave him too much credit.

i hate this on party poker: "oh man, what's he got, that sure was a big bet, must be aces or kings..." and then they turn over pocket 6's.

1) What do they think I have? Do they think about this?
2) What might they have?
3) What are my outs? How strong are they?
4) What are my pot odds?
5) Am I emotionally attached to these cards?
6) How big is their stack?
7) What are my implied odds?

i like the list. i would add "How and what have i seen them play?" and get rid of #5 - don't get "emotionally attached" to any hand - if you're beat, dump it.

good cards!

[BoondockSaint]

I'M EMOTIONALLY ATTACHED TO MY AK

I played with a dude 2 days ago that lost his whole stack to me with AK. I had JJ and raise 2-3 preflop I cant remember and the flop was J85 rainbow and the dude bets 4 i raise all in and take it down with trip Js. Im really not sure why he called the all in with AK. I love the hand but I will lay it down to that just about anyday. He was relatively short stacked so it only cost him like 20 but still.

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