QQ facing 5bet shove after 4bet call....crazy image

[Cobra_1878]

UTG - 22/14 through 63 hands and had folded to 1/2 3bets, not all of these hands where from this session. He was playing 16/12 through 24 hands for this session. I am sure I had notes on this guy but PS doesn't seem to have it saved, sorry about that.

Button - 28/22/20 through 32 hands. Had folded to 1/1 3bets.

I think it's very important to note I had a crazy image. I was 41/37/38 through 27 hands. I had cbet 4/4 times, stole 100% of the time from the button and 80% of the time from SB.

With that in mind does that give me any better "odds" to call that someone is getting a bit fed up and is shoving with AK/AQ/JJ/TT??? I know I am not closing the action either which is another problem as if UTG calls I am pretty sure I am way behind.

PokerStars - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: $1.00
BTN: $3.31
Hero (SB): $3.70
BB: $2.43
UTG: $5.05

Hero posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has Q Q

UTG raises to $0.04, fold, BTN raises to $0.12, Hero raises to $0.38, fold, UTG calls $0.34, BTN raises to $3.31 and is all-in, Hero ???

[WeldPhaser]

So, your only 25-30 hands in the sesh right?

It's hard for me to say. basically i think its 2nl and especially over on a couple hands. If anything you might be better off cause obv you look like a nut, but I'm not sure anyone really cares at that level on stars.

I'm not giving my grams a fist pump bout getting in, but still am I think

[Cobra_1878]

Normally, I would say you're right with regards to players not noticing my image at these stakes. However, I would like to think I have made it blatantly obvious for even the most retarded of people to see that I have been overly aggressive. Yiou could still be right though, I don't know.

[WeldPhaser]

Ya know what i've noticed and also read to be true in posts.. In general how you've played in the past 0-30mins .

Especially on micros. like yesterday I saw a 12/8 or something close showdown 35s ( Now, it was in POS' vs. a fish), but man for the next 10min no one gave him any respect and they should have...

[Cobra_1878]

Yeah, that's true so that should increase my chances even more of somebody shoving a not so great hand over my 4bet? I am just concerned he is doing it into 2 players, 1 being UTG. I thought it looked like KK/AA exclusively, that's only my opinion of course.

[WeldPhaser]

Yeah, if anything at all . it helps, basically QQ is going in here unless we have a clear cut read on either i think.

[Weissr]

dang man, hate that spot. Lost QQ vs AA not long ago today, hard to get away from (well not really, I was pot committed after the betting went down but still).

[supa]

Hero folds. Understanding hero's image is great but villain hasn't shown he's capable of shoving a wide enough range to merit a call. We are either behind or flipping here most of the time.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Hero folds. Understanding hero's image is great but villain hasn't shown he's capable of shoving a wide enough range to merit a call. We are either behind or flipping here most of the time.

Bet me to the punch.

Hero is flipping @ 47% against { JJ+,AK }
Hero is flipping @ 52% against { TT+,AK }

In order for Hero to call, Villain's range for shoving must include 99 or worse or AQ or worse.
Hero must have seen Villain do this before to justify a call. Hero must have seen Villain make adjustments to deal with an aggro which include shoving light.

[Icanhastreebet]

Bet me to the punch.

Hero is flipping @ 47% against { JJ+,AK }
Hero is flipping @ 52% against { TT+,AK }

In order for Hero to call, Villain's range for shoving must include 99 or worse or AQ or worse.
Hero must have seen Villain do this before to justify a call. Hero must have seen Villain make adjustments to deal with an aggro which include shoving light.

??? If we are up against one of those ranges we should be THRILLED to get the money in at this point.

[jaxpaboo]

Find it hard to believe he would go all in with AA or KK here.. why so big. Then again maybe that's why I lose alot with JJ QQ

[supa]

??? If we are up against one of those ranges we should be THRILLED to get the money in at this point.

I think that's a pretty big if.

[kickass]

Find it hard to believe he would go all in with AA or KK here.. why so big. Then again maybe that's why I lose alot with JJ QQ

Lol!
Ez fold

[eugmac]

but still i think his point was, when our equity is 47%, MMM advocates a fold which is incorrect considering our pot odds.

[Icanhastreebet]

but still i think his point was, when our equity is 47%, MMM advocates a fold which is incorrect considering our pot odds.

Pretty much this, MMM says we NEED villain to have AQ/99 to call when we don't at all.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I was saying that it takes a pretty absurd range on Villain to give Hero a good reason to call.I was saying that IF Hero is ahead, Hero is barely ahead.

I definitely agree that finding the maximum +EV line in any hand is best... but this is micro-donk stakes and IF there is any value here, it is SUPER thin at best.

Hero can safely fold ALL "close" calls at micro-donk stakes, with very little loss to his/her maximum +EV over all hands, since the villains will pay Hero off in so many FAT value spots that the thin ones almost don't matter.

Ultimately you can shoot for all of those thin value spots, but the result is massive increase in variance and a minor increase in winrate. At micro-stakes, I recommend limiting your thin value lines for this reason and another: You (We) are making huge mistakes on your (our) fat value lines and those mistakes need to be the main focus of your (our) improvement.

[Pascal]

Folding +EV spots will decrease our edge, which will in turn increase our variance as variance is a product of our edge not of the lines we take.

There's too much dead money to fold here, especially with the chance of the cold 4bet caller overcalling some trash

[xptboy]

Easy call imo, you got a crazy image, he knows it, you have the better hand most of the time.

[supa]

Hero's image isn't as crazy as everyone's making it sound. Button looks aware enough to know this. Buttons shove is not a bluff. Hero has to call 150 bbs. There is not enough dead money in the pot imo.

[OngBonga]

I expect to see AK a lot here, if not AK it's JJ+ at widest. Marginal, but the shove has me leaning AK so I prob level myself into calling.

[Pascal]

What sizing does villain go for if he has KK/AA? I think he 5bets small close to 0% of the time with any of his range

[xptboy]

this is an easy call for me...

''crazy image'' + 2NL + weird overshove + QQ + you could very well be squeezing (although I doubt anyone at 2NL knows what that is)

Yeah not letting that go preflop, don't care if I come up against AA or KK.

[celtic123]

This is a fold.

The BTN looks sensible to me, sensible plays back at you when he had a hand. Cant see him loosening up against you. Unless hes seen you showdown with crap.

This is 6 max, youre stealing , Cbetting , showing BTN aggression.

BTN has 3BET an UTG (min ) raise , his range is AA,KK,QQ,AK whatever.
He then shoves your 4 bet , his range Is now AA or KK if you like.


As for dead money, is it really dead money? There was $0.91 in the pot , then BTN shoves. I see no dead money for Hero to make a stab at.

[OngBonga]

What sizing does villain go for if he has KK/AA? I think he 5bets small close to 0% of the time with any of his range

I obviously don't know what this villain does with KK/AA in this spot, but I'm prob gonna find out if he has it. I certainly expect AA to call the 4bet some non zero %, based on our image. He might feel we're wide enough that we have too much that folds to 5bet. And this is 2nl where lots of dumb villains just min 3b/4b/5b KK+. So yeah I'm expecting small 5bets with KK+ sometimes.

Like I say, I might just be levelling myself. At worst we get it in 20% dog and get a note on how he plays KK+, at best we're dominant vs his JJ or AQ. Since we 4bet and there's tons of dead money, I consider this marginal enough that if it's -ev, it's not going to be huge.

[supa]

What happened? Did you call?

[Cobra_1878]

I folded and UTG folded behind me so don't know what villain was shoving with.

EDIT - Just as a side note, I think if I didn't have UTG to act behind me I would have probably called.

[cleanup.that]

If you think he is paying attention to your image, and is capable of adjusting his play based on that... well then you need to adjust your calling ranges accordingly. If you think hes not paying attention and just 5 betting his normal range... well then you need to adjust your calling ranges accordingly. Do you see where I am going with this? You need better reads, pretty simple.

Now..It seems pretty clear to me that you either did not have a well thought out plan for this hand or did not have any idea of what you were trying to accomplish in this spot. You literally set yourself up for failure by forcing yourself into a spot in which you had no idea how to handle or play correctly. This can generally be avoided by taking a little longer to think through your decisions.

Every decision we make at the table needs to have a clear cut aim and it needs to be the most +EV decision we can make for ourselves at the time. (There are certainly spots where we might want to make small -EV plays in order to increase our EV on future plays but for the sake of simplicity lets ignore this.)

To make sure we are doing this, we need to ask ourselves some questions and go over some possible scenarios BEFORE we make these oh so important decisions.

For this hand I will go over some general things that I probably would have asked myself before deciding on 4 betting here or not:

What is the PURPOSE of a 4 bet in this spot?

Would a 4 bet be superior to a fold or flat?

What do I EXPECT to happen after I 4-bet?

What do I WANT to happen after I 4-bet?

What am I going to do if he flats my 4bet?

What am I going to do if he min 5 bets me?

Am I calling a shove?

If you were not considering or did not know the answers to some of these things before you chose to 4 bet, then quite frankly the decision to do so was a leak. And this goes for any decision that you make at the table as well.

Practice this simple technique above. You will be surprised at how many times it stops you from leaking away free money.

Now I am going to cut to the chase and tell you what I would have done in this spot and why.

I FLAT HIS 3 BET AND PLAY SOME POKERRRRZZ!!

Why? VILLAINS decision to 3 bet an UTG raiser has NOTHING to do with YOUR IMAGE. VILLAINS action will usually mean strength.

VILLAIN RANGE= JJ+ AQ+ now lets add some shit in there coz hes kinda loose and he IS OTB after all. So MAYBE he has shit like 89s+ 22+ in his range SOME of the time bc he wants to squeeze for whatever reason. Point being he has some hands in his range THAT WE CRUSH.

Why not just flat and force him to take the hands in his range that we CRUSH over to the next street, while at the same time DISGUISING the strength of our OWN hand?

The only thing our 4 bet is doing is forcing him to play CORRECTLY against OUR RANGE. IE: He folds alllll the shitty hands that we crush, and continues with only the hands that have us FUKING SMOKED. I mean dude a 150bb 5 bet shove range is AA KK MAYBBEEEEEEEEEE AK and even then, his range> our hand.

How can we win money like that? We cannot!!!

This is Sklansky's fundamental theorem of poker in its purest form. You are FORCING this scumbag to make correct decisions against your range.

And what happens when villain plays correctly against your hand (range) ?? You lose...

So what do we do? Make him play incorrectly!!!! Flat. Disguise hand. Villain plays the weak part of his range incorrectly bc you didnt TELL him you had a monster. PROFIITTTT.

Sorry for the long post but its my first post in a whilllle on this site and I'm bored
on a Saturday night =((((

[Cobra_1878]

If you think he is paying attention to your image, and is capable of adjusting his play based on that... well then you need to adjust your calling ranges accordingly. If you think hes not paying attention and just 5 betting his normal range... well then you need to adjust your calling ranges accordingly. Do you see where I am going with this? You need better reads, pretty simple.

Now..It seems pretty clear to me that you either did not have a well thought out plan for this hand or did not have any idea of what you were trying to accomplish in this spot. You literally set yourself up for failure by forcing yourself into a spot in which you had no idea how to handle or play correctly. This can generally be avoided by taking a little longer to think through your decisions.

Every decision we make at the table needs to have a clear cut aim and it needs to be the most +EV decision we can make for ourselves at the time. (There are certainly spots where we might want to make small -EV plays in order to increase our EV on future plays but for the sake of simplicity lets ignore this.)

To make sure we are doing this, we need to ask ourselves some questions and go over some possible scenarios BEFORE we make these oh so important decisions.

For this hand I will go over some general things that I probably would have asked myself before deciding on 4 betting here or not:

What is the PURPOSE of a 4 bet in this spot?

Would a 4 bet be superior to a fold or flat?

What do I EXPECT to happen after I 4-bet?

What do I WANT to happen after I 4-bet?

What am I going to do if he flats my 4bet?

What am I going to do if he min 5 bets me?

Am I calling a shove?

If you were not considering or did not know the answers to some of these things before you chose to 4 bet, then quite frankly the decision to do so was a leak. And this goes for any decision that you make at the table as well.

Practice this simple technique above. You will be surprised at how many times it stops you from leaking away free money.

Now I am going to cut to the chase and tell you what I would have done in this spot and why.

I FLAT HIS 3 BET AND PLAY SOME POKERRRRZZ!!

Why? VILLAINS decision to 3 bet an UTG raiser has NOTHING to do with YOUR IMAGE. VILLAINS action will usually mean strength.

VILLAIN RANGE= JJ+ AQ+ now lets add some shit in there coz hes kinda loose and he IS OTB after all. So MAYBE he has shit like 89s+ 22+ in his range SOME of the time bc he wants to squeeze for whatever reason. Point being he has some hands in his range THAT WE CRUSH.

Why not just flat and force him to take the hands in his range that we CRUSH over to the next street, while at the same time DISGUISING the strength of our OWN hand?

The only thing our 4 bet is doing is forcing him to play CORRECTLY against OUR RANGE. IE: He folds alllll the shitty hands that we crush, and continues with only the hands that have us FUKING SMOKED. I mean dude a 150bb 5 bet shove range is AA KK MAYBBEEEEEEEEEE AK and even then, his range> our hand.

How can we win money like that? We cannot!!!

This is Sklansky's fundamental theorem of poker in its purest form. You are FORCING this scumbag to make correct decisions against your range.

And what happens when villain plays correctly against your hand (range) ?? You lose...

So what do we do? Make him play incorrectly!!!! Flat. Disguise hand. Villain plays the weak part of his range incorrectly bc you didnt TELL him you had a monster. PROFIITTTT.

Sorry for the long post but its my first post in a whilllle on this site and I'm bored
on a Saturday night =((((

Thanks for the reply, great post.

Would just like to point out that I have about 10 seconds to make a decision due to stars making it compulsory that all tables for this stake be played at fast so I don't have as long as I would like to think about my hand and a plan for it. Obviously for people who have played much longer than me and who are much better than me then it's pretty automatic for them and they don't need long at all, but I do.

Also, I try to keep myself out of situations where I know I play badly, such as an overpair on a low board. If I flat his 3bet, and as you say we put him on JJ+ AQ+, and the board is a low board with me holding an overpair, I know I will get myself into trouble convincing myself he has TT/JJ and have problems believing him and laying down my hand.

[celtic123]

Thanks for the reply, great post.

Would just like to point out that I have about 10 seconds to make a decision due to stars making it compulsory that all tables for this stake be played at fast so I don't have as long as I would like to think about my hand and a plan for it. Obviously for people who have played much longer than me and who are much better than me then it's pretty automatic for them and they don't need long at all, but I do.

.

I'm gaining so much from this.

What is the PURPOSE of a 4 bet in this spot?
Would a 4 bet be superior to a fold or flat?
What do I EXPECT to happen after I 4-bet?
What do I WANT to happen after I 4-bet?
What am I going to do if he flats my 4bet?
What am I going to do if he min 5 bets me?
Am I calling a shove ?

Its simply having a plan and can be processed in the brain without even thinking it.

thanks Clean.up, get bored more often. :/

[Cobra_1878]

First of, I said it was a great post.

Secondly, I was pointing out the time limit as to why I cannot think of all the things he suggested in time, it is not second nature for me as it probably is for most daily players. That doesn't mean I haven't taken his advice on board.

Thirdly, I got the point of his post about calling instead of 4betting as he specifically wrote it.

Not sure what the intention of your post was whatsoever.

[celtic123]

Sorry, edited out the bits where I spoke to you

[seven-deuce]

Two questions was the UTG player opening 2x as standard? Was BTN 3betting a lot IP? I would make this call, also UTG's range changes when he chooses to flat your 4bet instead of 5bet, it weakens.. substantially. Once your facing the shove im not considering UTG at all given the previous action, if UTG has opened with KK+, been 3bet, then a 4th bet was put in from SB i don't think he's flatting that range ever so his call is essentially dead money in the pot. And if he decides to gamble with a worse pair or JTs etc that's just a bonus.

The range id give BTN is JJ+ AQs+ AK given the dead money in the pot, and his 3bet stat over a small sample i know but he seems to have been pretty active with the 3bets.

I'd call.

[MadMojoMonkey]

@ cleanup.that: Golden, man. Brilliant! Keep this good stuff coming. Also:
THANK YOU

@ Cobra: LOL that everybody calls you out for random stuffs. Why is that? I think because you actually try and admit your shortcomings, and that makes people uncomfortable. I wonder if you can take that skill to the table? I bet so.

[cleanup.that]

Also, I try to keep myself out of situations where I know I play badly, such as an overpair on a low board. If I flat his 3bet, and as you say we put him on JJ+ AQ+, and the board is a low board with me holding an overpair, I know I will get myself into trouble convincing myself he has TT/JJ and have problems believing him and laying down my hand.

Totally understand. Holding an overpair on a low board while we can possibly be up against a stronger overpair is by no means an easy situation. But it is a situation which CAN be played profitably. It will take lots of time, lots of practice, and it WILL get frustating.

Just remember though, ranges still apply after the flop and there is a tonnnn of info you can gain throughout the rest of the hand that will aid you in making profitable decisions. For example:

Whats his c bet range on an Axx flop? what about 876 two tone flop?
Whats his 2 barell range on xxxx board? 3 barrel range on xxxxx board?
What is his c-bet flop, then check turn range?
And so on and so forth.

This is what I meant when i said "PLAY SOME POKERRZZZ!" Try not to be afraid of the post flop game. Learn to embrace this very difficult part of the game and work on making it a strength.

Yes playing post flop can be tough and even intimidating but this is where the big money is won and lost in this game. Especially nowadays when most players (even beginners) will have a decent grasp on proper pre-flop play, making it harder to earn winnings and gain edges in this area of the game.

Good luck at the tables mayne!