kings and confused

[kickass]

$0.05/$0.10 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
8 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($15.37)
UTG+1 ($7.76)
MP1 ($10.49)
MP2 ($7.32)
CO ($8.46)
kickass (BTN) ($10)
SB ($10.26)
BB ($10.32)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15, 8 players) kickass is BTN
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 3 folds, kickass raises to $0.50, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.15, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $1.10, kickass calls $1.10

Turn: ($3.35, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $1.90, kickass calls $1.90

River: ($7.15, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $4.10, kickass folds

Final Pot: $11.25

UTG+1 wins $10.91 (net +$3.31)

kickass lost $3.50 and cried in his soup


villain is 18/0 over 20ish, No idea what the fuck this is, fold turn? got a clue?

[OngBonga]

He's betting pot on flop, he's rarely bluffing. I don't like flop call, either stack him or fold imo, I'd probably stack him giving him A9 55+, not sure if this is wise. Over to stove...

[EasyPoker]

Edited

Cos I would ldo jam.

[OngBonga]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

48,510 games 0.015 secs 3,234,000 games/sec

Board: 9c 5s 6h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 61.701% 61.12% 00.58% 29650 281.00 { KcKs }
Hand 1: 38.299% 37.72% 00.58% 18298 281.00 { JJ-55, A9s, 87s, A9o }

---

Yeah I'm happy to raise him on flop, he's stacking with most if not all of this range, unless he can fold A9 but his pot size donk bet is indicative that he is happy to jam this pot.

[OngBonga]

What range are you giving villain EP?

[OngBonga]

That's not a range, that's a gut feeling you're beat. He can do this with A9s, 77, 88 and TT for sure, as well as the hands that beat us, the only two hands that are maybes for me are A9o and JJ, one he might fold pre, the other he might raise.

[OngBonga]

Ok let's see what the others say, I'm not getting into a bitch fight.

[kickass]

I honestly thought about folding flop just felt so weak tight I only called the turn cos it was smaller than I expected and A9 and overpairs might have been scared of the bigger card, if he's scared Im winning.

[kickass]

You basically lost more than necessary through fps.

I never considered this to be fps, I think i may have caught it bad

[gingerwizard]

This seems retarded. I'm stacking off with KK vs 75BBs especially after only 20 hands on this flop. I like his flop bet and I'm probably raise/getting it all in on it.

I think folding KK to a guy who leads on a rag-tacular flop and has called 4 hands in 20 is a massive equity leak.

Put in this way, if you fold to every unknown who donks out, even when you have an overpair, you are as exploitable as you can be.

[kickass]

Put in this way, if you fold to every unknown who donks out, even when you have an overpair, you are as exploitable as you can be.

he donked pot not the usual donk min to see where im at that the passive fish love so much

[OngBonga]

Folding flop is absurd.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

24,750 games 0.005 secs 4,950,000 games/sec

Board: 9c 5s 6h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.410% 46.85% 00.56% 11596 138.00 { KcKs }
Hand 1: 52.590% 52.03% 00.56% 12878 138.00 { JJ-99, 66-55, 87s }


---

Giving him just sets, 78s and TT/JJ overpairs, the dead money means we're good to go. For every hand he can do this with that we beat, our equity shoots up. 77 and 88 definitely donk pots this flop at least sometimes, as does A9. This is not a flop fold.

[OngBonga]

Lol, I have disagreed with ginger, I believe. Come on, I went and mashed villain's narrowest range into stove, and came to the conclusion that folding is absurd. I did my own homework, I'm not riding on anyone's opinion, it's just that I happen to agree with ginger on this, and many other hands.

If you are folding this flop, please, before you start jumping on my back for saying folding is absurd, put villain on a range and post your results, and see if the regs agree with your range. For this to be a fold, villain doesn't have TT/JJ, ginger didn't tell me this.

[EasyPoker]

LOL.

This just happened to me, except I had AA.

I snap-shoved.

[kickass]

tits or gtfo

[EasyPoker]

ROFL

I bow down to the gingerwizard

not ongie tho he's still a whale :P

[PKKFW]

I can't see a flop fold here any which way I look at it. Frankly I'm stacking off on the flop. He could easily be doing this with TT/JJ, A9 and probably even 88/77 sometimes.

[kickass]

well through out all of this it looks like I picked the worst option nobody fink a call is gud

[kickass]

shame you took out all of your advice 'easy poker' I think you made some good points wrong or not it should all be considered

[bikes]

calling is fine i dunno wtf everyone is on about

[EasyPoker]

No one said calling is wrong, but I trollingly said I'd fold...

When it actually happened to me at the tables I jammed.

[baudib]

kick, fwiw I'd probably play it the same. I know that every nit at NL10 is donking their sets these days but 20 hands is probably not enough to just dump it on the flop.

[maverick007]

I would almost always re-raise the flop here. If he calls, then we know villain is not just bluffing. Slow down on the turn if he still shows resistance.

[kickass]

I would almost always re-raise the flop here. If he calls, then we know villain is not just bluffing. Slow down on the turn if he still shows resistance.

i never thought he was bluffing maybe semi bluff with 88 77 T8 maybe. but value betting worse A9 TT JJ other 9x thats somewhere between a value bet and a semi bluff or crushing me with 55 66 99 78 maybe 56. if my douchebag villain would stack all of this then just getting it in would be winning but my range is prolly off some.

[supa]

I would almost always re-raise the flop here. If he calls, then we know villain is not just bluffing. Slow down on the turn if he still shows resistance.

This is a great way to lose value from hands we beat and spew chips to hands we don't.

[Hoopy]

Villein looks passive so far making his line stronger imo.

Bet sizing is kind of interesting. Guessing he has 99/66/55/A9/TT/JJ (not 87) most of the time, I don't think 10NL randoms bluff lead for pot after limp/calling pre.

Would fold river as I can't see him betting JJ/TT/random 9x now.

[gingerwizard]

Well I was hammered last night. Calling is fine but I would have raised. Folding flop seems retarded for the reasons I gave before.

[gingerwizard]

Potting the pot may rarely be a bluff, but it's also often a bet from a player happy to take it down. A9s TTs T9s etc. Seriously he's played 4 of the 20 hands you've played with him. This is not large enough to put him on a set.

[DonkWannabe]

I think if they guy flopped a set or a st8 he wouldnt bet out, whats the point when your expecting kickass to cont. bet?? then he could re-raise.

I think he just bluffed you out the pot because you just called!

[bikes]

call flap
call turn
fold river.

i dont see what the problem is here.

[gingerwizard]

call flap
call turn
fold river.

i dont see what the problem is here.

The problem is where he says he seriously considered folding the flop.

[maverick007]

This is a great way to lose value from hands we beat and spew chips to hands we don't.

Villain limp called preflop and donked the flop. Our kings are way ahead against most of his range on this flop. Raising the flop here just seems like the best option to get value for our kings.

[rpm]

it doesn't matter if we're ahead when he donks. when deciding to bet/raise for value, all that matters is how we do against villain's CALLING range. for example, if we had some read that this dude donks 100% of his range on this flop, but only ever continues to a raise with sets, then raising is an incorrect play EVEN THOUGH we are crushing the range of his which we currently face (ie his donking range) because when we bet or raise, we change the range of villain's which we are playing against. we're now playing against his donk/calling range, which will be smaller and stronger than his donking range.

[EasyPoker]

it doesn't matter if we're ahead when he donks. when deciding to bet/raise for value, all that matters is how we do against villain's CALLING range. for example, if we had some read that this dude donks 100% of his range on this flop, but only ever continues to a raise with sets, then raising is an incorrect play EVEN THOUGH we are crushing the range of his which we currently face (ie his donking range) because when we bet/raise, we change the range of villain's which we are playing against. we're now playing against his donk/calling range, which will be smaller and stronger than his donking range.

Repped.

People make retarded decisions and get stacked because of thinking in the way that Xander just did.

[baudib]

Something that ISF said once in a hand that wasn't even remotely similar to this...
"it doesn't matter if we bet it or he bets it."

Xander, if villain had checked here we'd probably bet LESS than the $1.10 he donked into us. So if he's betting worse hands here, it's not like we're getting cheated out of value.

If this were a much more aggressive player and there was history of spew between us, then raising is an option because he has so much air and we're reraising with air so often. But in this case villain is practically never bluffing.

By flatting we keep our range wide and we also keep villain's range as wide as possible so that he still has those worse hands on the turn. Raising and isolating ourselves against the hands that beat us is obviously awful.

[maverick007]

Thanks a ton rpm and baudib for those tips. This is exactly why I joined the forum. Its always a learning experience!