thoughts on flatting AA?

[rpm]

this question came from a 2+2 thread i was reading about 3betting. let's say we're on the button with AA, and a 24/16 opens in the CO (or any other player who is opening with a wide range and only continuing with a small range). his range here is very weak (in terms of fold equity - he folds a large % of his range to aggression), so one adjustment we could make to exploit that would be to 3bet a weak(er than average) range - to exploit the amount he is folding. there are two ways to weaken a range

1 - add more weak hands to it
2 - remove strong hands from it

i always assumed that we should be doing #1, because i thought i didn't want my range to be 100% bluffs (unless my opponent somehow folded 100% of the time), because that detracts value from hands like KK,AA the times he actually does have one of the hands making up the 15% (or whatever %) of his range he actually continues with, whether flatting or 4betting.

this is just one scenario i can imagine where flatting AA might be preferable. my question is - what do you people think of flatting AA to a preflop raise? do you do it? and what kind of conditions need to be met to make you prefer flatting it to 3betting it?

thanks

[StarGrinder]

Another reason to flat AA is OTB vs a loose raiser and the blinds are squeeze happy... lol trapaments.

[Openside]

I have thought along similar lines, in situations where there are people left to act i would rather 3bet and risk folding out the opener than go to the flop multiway. Even on the button, if one of the blinds is laggy im probably 3betting.

Edit: im standing up if there is a lagg in my blinds

[JR9477]

Feels like we'd be trading getting a lot of value from tight range, for getting some value from a wide range. If it even works that way, as he may just fold the majority of his junk postflop, though we're also giving him opportunity to hit something that beats us.

[!Luck]

So you want to have a 3 betting range to be Axs and Kxs?

[Donachello]

Reasons to flat AA.

Opener is tight and folds to almost every 3bet.
People left to act are over aggro and 3bet with significant frequency.

Reasons to 3bet AA.

Isolating a huge fish raiser.
original raiser flats 3bets or 4bets a lot.
Original raiser and you have a dynamic that will induce spazzes.

[kmind]

Well I think you should be doing #1 and #2 in this case. Definitely helps to figure out how aggro they are postflop too so if they're cbetting a ton then flatting makes even more sense with AA. You don't always need to balance; just exploit.

[rpm]

@ !Luck
whose post was that question directed at? and where did you get Axs and Kxs from? i imagine with positional advantage against a wide opening range (like the scenario i described in the first post) we could flat almost any Axs because

- our opponent range is weak. A2s is roughly a flip against 30% of hands, which a lot of more aggressive players are probably opening in the CO
- we block some Ax/AA for TPTK/overpair
- we can flop draws and backdoor draws to play aggressively profitably because he is going to be playing a weak range aggressively for at least one street (ie high Cbet flop % typical of these players).
- we are probably getting a free bet on every Axx flop, because he will probably cbet every A high board.

@donachello
good points for consideration. thanks.

@kmind
i don't think anyone has mentioned balance? i mean, whether we leave our nut hands in our 3bet range or not, we're going to want to have like >75% of our 3bet range as "bluffs" when 3betting this guy, to exploit his high fold frequency. doing that necessary entails being exploitable and being unbalanced. good point about considering postflop aggression.

[kfaess]

imo the most important factor is how he reacts to 3bs.

--If he's opening loose but is continuing to 3bs often then obviously 3b it for value.

--If he's opening loose but folding to almost every 3b then obviously flat and bluff 3b him a ton.

EDIT: agree with DC, I think I'm saying basically the same thing as some of what he said.

[kmind]

Yeah I was just saying in general. Like you said you usually do #1. I think that strat. is basically balancing and there are some good times to do so, but you don't always need to. I guess I don't always refer to balance as having to be a 1:1 (nuts:air) type deal so yeah I see what you are saying then.

[mbiz]

I thought this was pretty cool until results

Stacks:
UTG MiDra666 ($7.24)
UTG+1 Nesttor11 ($10.89)
MP1 AceShiELITE ($19.98)
MP2 Hero ($10)
MP3 nerks ($3.70)
CO Björn745 ($3.57)
BTN vanille85 ($9.40)
SB qrgitu ($16.58)
BB Geo Arechiga ($10.96)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15, 9 players) Hero is MP2
MiDra666 calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, 1 fold, Björn745 calls $0.40, 2 folds, Geo Arechiga raises to $2, MiDra666 folds, Hero calls $1.60, Björn745 calls $1.60

Flop: ($6.15, 3 players)
Geo Arechiga bets $5, Hero goes all-in $8, Björn745 goes all-in $1.57, Geo Arechiga calls $3

Turn: ($23.72, 3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($23.72, 3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $23.72
Hero shows

Björn745 shows

Geo Arechiga shows three of a kind, Jacks


Geo Arechiga wins $22.55 (net +$12.55)

MiDra666 lost $0.10
Hero lost $10
Björn745 lost $3.57

[daviddem]

^^^ Bad idea to flat the 4b when the CO flatted your 3b imo. Just shove over pre and be done with it.

If you're ever going to flat AA, do it heads up AND in position.

[bikes]

^^^ Bad idea to flat the 4b when the CO flatted your 3b imo. Just shove over pre and be done with it.

If you're ever going to flat AA, do it heads up AND in position.

wtf... this is an awesome spot to flat AA

[Donachello]

wtf... this is an awesome spot to flat AA

+1

[daviddem]

I misread the HH and somehow thought that we had 3b and CO flatted the 3b and BB had 4b, but I see now that it is not the case (UTG just limped).

But still, when we flat we should expect CO to call, right (odds and all)? Do we really want to play AA multiway post-flop sandwiched between a 3-better and a caller?

Please explain why it is such a good spot to be in.

[spoonitnow]

I misread the HH and somehow thought that we had 3b and CO flatted the 3b and BB had 4b, but I see now that it is not the case (UTG just limped).

But still, when we flat we should expect CO to call, right (odds and all)? Do we really want to play AA multiway post-flop sandwiched between a 3-better and a caller?

Please explain why it is such a good spot to be in.

fuck who gives a fuck about multiways the spr is like 1.1 or some stpid shit wtf jesuc godamn christ fuck are you seerious get the other fucking guty to call and shit

[spoonitnow]

Yeah I was just saying in general. Like you said you usually do #1. I think that strat. is basically balancing and there are some good times to do so, but you don't always need to. I guess I don't always refer to balance as having to be a 1:1 (nuts:air) type deal so yeah I see what you are saying then.

also balance doesn't mean the same # of bluffs as strong hands etc but that's like some serious tangent shit check out my game theory post #5000 talks about balance and shit a lot

[daviddem]

OK my bad.

I am dumb but I also didn't get what the score is with the T33's?

[spoonitnow]

lol wow last night was great, I think I was just mashing buttons