25NL: bottom pair on a paired flop

[Jchoop2011]

Full Tilt - $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em (6 players)

SB: $25
BB: $24.58
UTG: $11.12
MP Hero: $25.86
CO: $25
BTN: $37.83

Pre-flop: ($0.35) Hero is MP and dealt 7h 8h
UTG calls $0.25, Hero raises $0.50, 3 folds, BB calls $0.25, UTG calls $0.25

Flop: ($1.60) Kd Ks 8c (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $1, BB raises $2, UTG folds, Hero calls $1

Turn: ($5.60) Kd Ks 8c 8d (2 players)
BB bets $1.75, Hero calls $1.75

River: ($9.10) Kd Ks 8c 8d 7s (2 players)
BB bets $4, Hero???



I only had about 40 hands on villian, but he was 55/27, aggfact of 1.8 and flop c/r frequency of 40%

Should i have called the river? How is my play through the rest of the hand?
Cheers

[couriermike]

Preflop, usually it's better to iso-raise a normal amount rather than over-limp or minraise just because you're getting re-popped behind alot and will have to fold. So I don't like preflop. You could over-limp at a passive table, but iso-raising 8-high against a loose player is not good, you're actually behind his range with very little fold equity. For all those reasons, I'd fold this preflop.

OTF, I think you should fold to his min-raise. There's really no worse hands for him to have.

As played on the turn and river, I'd probably call down with the baby full house because he might think 99-JJ is the nuts here.

Preflop, I'd give him a healthy range of pairs, aces, broadway, most suited face cards, connectors, sc's, s1g's and s2g's.

OTF and for the rest of the hand, I'd put his range at any hand he had preflop that is 8x, Kx, or 88+. You're 12% against that range.

On the turn and river, you're about 45%. So calling is OK. But really you should have folded preflop and on the flop.

[Shotglass]

Pre, I'd just over-limp with the sc to see a cheap flop, and call a min raise from the BB. You've got fairly good equity against his pfr range.

With the BB at 40% c/r OTF there's a TON of air that he's going to have and by calling you know nothing about the strength of his hand. I'd raise to about $9 or $10 and seriously consider folding if he shoves.

OTT, his small bet smells like weakness or a suck bet with a K. Again, by calling you know nothing about the strength of his hand...I'd thow in a pot sized re-raise and re-evaluate after his actions. I mean seriously...passive play is for pussies! Why? Because it likes THE nuts. Which your hand isn't. If he calls or re-raises then he's probably got you beat.

As played, I'd call the river. You'll need to be absolutely certain that you're beat to lay this down.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ge-177508.html

Edit: Has he went to showdown lately and if so what did he have?

[d0zer]

Preflop, usually it's better to iso-raise a normal amount rather than over-limp or minraise just because you're getting re-popped behind alot and will have to fold.

You may be getting raised some of the time by a reg who'll iso limpers with an over-limp, but less so with a minraise so I would seriously question your use of "alot".

[kfaess]

I'd prob just fold PF tbh.

[Jchoop2011]

thanks guys thats really helpful.
And yeah, not quite sure wtf i was doing min raising suited connectors in MP, im pretty sure i was in a tight spot on another table and just stupidly hit raise lol :P
I called the river simply because his turn bet was so weak and he rolled J7o.
Quick question with the reply from shotglass, why am i reraising him to $9 or $10 when there's only about $3.50 in the pot? if i chose to reraise in this spot at the time i probably would have gone to $6 or 6.50.

[d0zer]

Quick question with the reply from shotglass, why am i reraising him to $9 or $10 when there's only about $3.50 in the pot? if i chose to reraise in this spot at the time i probably would have gone to $6 or 6.50.

Don't listen to shotglass, he just told you to raise the flop to nearly half your stack for information and then fold to a jam which is retarded. If you're gunna turn your hand into a bluff here, you don't need to make it so big, but you don't need to turn your hand into a bluff at all cuz you have showdown value as villain either has a king or he doesn't (most likely if he's bluffy at all), and he'll usually let you know by his bet sizing on later streets.

You played it ok aside from preflop, though I'd fold to a turn or river bet that was closer to pot.

[Jchoop2011]

I'd fold to a turn or river bet that was closer to pot.

Definitely, weak betting really gave him away. thanks

[Shotglass]

Quick question with the reply from shotglass, why am i reraising him to $9 or $10 when there's only about $3.50 in the pot? if i chose to reraise in this spot at the time i probably would have gone to $6 or 6.50.

I miscalculated the pot size bet...to make a ps re-raise it would be about 6-ish. If I'd said pot sized re-raise it would have made more sense...sorry for the confusion and the display of my drunken math skills. I said seriously consider a fold to a jam because of the 40% cr OTF that the villain has. That's a lot of air...if he continues after a re-raise then he's probably got the goods.

WTF would you just call OTF when that hand is good but extremely vulnerable?

[couriermike]

Our hand isn't really vulnerable on this super dry flop since there's no draws to charge. In any case, raising the flop is bad because it folds out all the bluffs we're getting value from, and gives away a bet when we're beat. In general, making a bet or raise that only gets called by better is very -EV, except in the case where we're picking up dead moniez.

[d0zer]

In general, making a bet or raise that only gets called by better is very -EV, except in the case where we're picking up dead moniez.

define "dead moniez"

[couriermike]

I would say 'dead moniez' is a pot where no one has shown any interest. For example, it's multi-way, you're otb. The flop is low or w/e and it gets checked to you, you can stab because people haven't shown interest, right? Almost like an orphaned pot.

[d0zer]

I would say 'dead moniez' is a pot where no one has shown any interest. For example, it's multi-way, you're otb. The flop is low or w/e and it gets checked to you, you can stab because people haven't shown interest, right? Almost like an orphaned pot.

that's just bluffing.

In general, making a bet or raise that only gets called by better is very -EV

bluffs only get called by better (usually).

The point here is that when you have a hand that can win at showdown, turning it into a bluff is often a waste. If hero had air here, raising the flop would be better than calling, and better than raising with a hand that will fold to a shove and often win at showdown.

The concept of "picking up dead money" is usually misunderstood and misapplied. It usually refers to making villain fold out their equity share in the pot, even though we may often have the best hand, like when we have A9 on a low board vs a range that has a lot of broadways

[couriermike]

Right, thanks for explaining that. I forgot about having showdown value, that totally changes things.

[Jchoop2011]

Our hand isn't really vulnerable on this super dry flop since there's no draws to charge. In any case, raising the flop is bad because it folds out all the bluffs we're getting value from, and gives away a bet when we're beat. In general, making a bet or raise that only gets called by better is very -EV, except in the case where we're picking up dead moniez.

I agree with you when you say raising the flop is bad because it only gets called by better but i didnt raise it, i bet- the reason being because the villains c/r frequency is so high. If i was sitting on a 40% c/r frequency this is exactly the kind of flop i would check raise- so in other words, i pretty much bet here to induce a bluff.
I assumed if he was representing a king on the flop, hes almost always continuing with that 'bluff' on the turn, which is fine because thats exactly what i want. So i dont raise the turn because hes only calling a raise here with a king.
Is my logic no good? lol