What should i do with AK on the button against a table of limpers?

[Jchoop2011]

Hi guys,
While you may read this thread title and think 'wtf are you kidding' lol please hear me out.

I play $0.25/0.5 NL, 20-40BB Six Max on FT.
I found myself on the button today with AKo and the entire table had limped round to me. I had a max buy in stack of 40BB (shallow tables) and had no idea what line to take. Obviously limping is out of the question, and im not folding, so that leaves me with either a monster raise or open shove. Problem is, i find at the micro stakes (and my table selection really doesnt help) that im playing with that many fish (and im talking the kind of guys who have a HUD of 60/10) that any raise i make under about 40% of their stack will get at least one caller in that scenario.
If i miss the flop, im totally screwed and basically have to fold every time- its impossible to outplay fish that dont know how to play. You need to play good ABC poker to beat fish, and you need a hand to do that. If they make a 2/3 of the pot donk bet, i find that i have to fold because they really could have hit the 4,7 or 9 on the board . Alternatively, if they ace or king drops, the villian is is virtually always check/folding without it.
Considering im only hitting the flop 30% of the time, and usually if i hit a pair my bets wont get called, im obviously making a losing play.
So as far as i can see, that leaves me with open shoving. But i think open shoving a full 40BB stack for 5.5BB is a bad move in itself, as im likely only getting called by hands that have me beat or underpockets which im a coinflip with.

Id also like to point out that this is TOTALLY not a problem i have ever had at higher levels such as $1/2+, its just something ive been struggling with against the micro donks

So, whats the go here guys? What do you do in this situation?
Thanks in advance,
Jordan

[StarGrinder]

Raise. Play with PokerStove and the limpers ranges. Worst case scenario is you're a slight dog on an AI w PPs but more often they'll have AXs, worse Ax and other unpaired broadways, etc. PF you're probably at least a 60/40 fav. You can obv get the money in on any A or K flop. If limpers only have 20bb or less, just put the money in.

[Jchoop2011]

do you see what i mean though about if i raise and miss the flop i have to fold? ive been thinking about this all day lol and im thinking the best move would probably be to shove it pre, simply because im usually 60:40 or a slight dog but i have so much fold equity which will usually pick me up the 5.5BBs there to make it a profitable play. thoughts?

[!Luck]

Just raise. Then when flop comes make a decision then. Then post hand here and we can try to help you.

-!luck

[supa]

I don't play 6max or on shallow tables, but it seems to me that if you don't know what to do with a hand like AKo on the button you shouldn't be playing them. At the risk of sounding like an asshole (some pun intended), it's fucking AK OTB.

[rong]

Supa, I'm liking you a whole lot more since you came round to the being an ass hole idea

[Shotglass]

It can't be said enough...RAISE! OMFG

[Razvan729]

how do you play AKo UTG/UTG+1?


"Obviously limping is out of the question, and im not folding, so that leaves me with either a monster raise or open shove. Problem is, i find at the micro stakes (and my table selection really doesnt help) that im playing with that many fish (and im talking the kind of guys who have a HUD of 60/10) that any raise i make under about 40% of their stack will get at least one caller in that scenario."

so you wanna raise AKo and get NO calls? isnt this the point of fishes to our tables, to call us with hands we dominate?

"If i miss the flop, im totally screwed and basically have to fold every time- its impossible to outplay fish that dont know how to play. You need to play good ABC poker to beat fish, and you need a hand to do that. If they make a 2/3 of the pot donk bet, i find that i have to fold because they really could have hit the 4,7 or 9 on the board . Alternatively, if they ace or king drops, the villian is is virtually always check/folding without it."

what if you raised AdAh and flop comes KsQsJs and fish donks you 2/3? what do you? cause you got made hand now.
what if you raise AKo and flop is 49Kr... you call 2/3 or fold? cause he might have K4,K9, 99,44, 94.... wtf he is a fish.

"Considering im only hitting the flop 30% of the time, and usually if i hit a pair my bets wont get called, im obviously making a losing play.
So as far as i can see, that leaves me with open shoving. But i think open shoving a full 40BB stack for 5.5BB is a bad move in itself, as im likely only getting called by hands that have me beat or underpockets which im a coinflip with."

would you shove QQ here? what if he limped/call KK+? or what if he calls with smaller PP and he hits a set? omg... stop playing QQ! actually stop playing even AA cause he might call AA and hit a flush you cant beat!!!


dont get me wrong.... i am still a donk, a really terriblle player by poker standards, i am playing just 5nl, but even i know AK is a fcking raising hand on BUTT no matter number of limpers. why the hell do you play 200nl, 100nl, 50nl like this example, even on those tables if you cant, sorry, DONT KNOW how to play AKo in the best position of the table? come back with me at 5nl and we learn togheter i would love you on my right side ... actually even on my left side

[Carroters]

OP: Drop down in limits.

[rong]

Is that the crip side?

[Shotglass]

i would love you on my right side ... actually even on my left side

Anywhere on the table actually....

[manfredi]

You should move up a few levels so you don't have to play against micro donks.

[mbiz]

Is that the crip side?

yeah thats the crip side

[couriermike]

Even if you whiff and have to c/f, the preflop raise is still very +EV, just because you're playing a bigger pot with a hand that crushes their ranges. Irrespective of the outcome of any particular hand, playing bigger pots with better hands is what you're looking to do.

[Infocolypse]

Even if you whiff and have to c/f, the preflop raise is still very +EV, just because you're playing a bigger pot with a hand that crushes their ranges. Irrespective of the outcome of any particular hand, playing bigger pots with better hands is what you're looking to do.

+1

In words even easier to understand STOP worrying about outcomes START worrying about making the correct decision.


"If i miss the flop, im totally screwed and basically have to fold every time- its impossible to outplay fish that dont know how to play. You need to play good ABC poker to beat fish, and you need a hand to do that.

You answer your own question here if you need to play abc poker to beat fish whats the abc poker strategy with ak on the button?

[Jchoop2011]

i think a lot of people missed the point of this thread or simply forgot to take into account that in this scenario there is a whole bunch of extra money in the pot due to the limpers. Im not interested in 'open raise AK because thats what it says in my starting hands guide' oriented comments. Im asking peoples thoughts on whether shoving or raising is a better move in that spot against players who have such a wide calling range that they could hit any flop. Remembering that the whole table has limped to me, theres a lot of dead money to be picked up 90% of the time if i shove, as opposed to if i raise and get called, where i will only be hitting 30% of flops and therefore folding 70% of the time.

thanks to those of you who decided to have some actual input.

[Shotglass]

I'd lean toward the monster raise instead of the shove, something like 4xbb +1 per limper or around $6.00, maybe $6.50. Granted the shove may cause more opponents to fold but this size will still have that effect. Plus you won't lose your whole stack if you get called and brick all three streets.