I am good at Poker, but can't seem to grasp online play...

[Fieldsy]

I generally play at $1/$2 NL often in Atlantic City. About 80% of the time I make a few hundred dollars and leave. I'm not good at pot odds or mathematics when it comes to poker.

For online play I play .50 cent/$1 NL. I do okay, but it is a real struggle. I always lose my stack in the end. I'm really confused and aggravated at how live poker can be so easy for me, while online is rough.

Is this problem common for a lot of people? How can I work on this?

Thanks

[KoRnholio]

It's very likely because the quality of play in a 1/2 NL live game is equivalent to about 5c/10c (10NL) online.

[jyms]

$1/$2 live will be more like $0.10/$0.25($25NL) online. I think your making a mistake thinking that live players are as good as online players in general. Most online players are seeing 400+ hands an hour and need to know much more about the math than some guy sitting at a live table thinking he can read your body language. 80% of the players playing $100NL online are playing 50-100K hands a month and have played for a couple years.

[Fieldsy]

I have heard that one other time....it sounds crazy but I guess its true.

What if those good online players at 1/2NL played a live game? Would they be that much better than a successful live reg?

[yungmath]

regular 1/2 online players are 50x better than players that you will see at the live 1/2 tables. it is really incredible how much worse live players tend to be.. most regular online players know so many more concepts, math, and theories around poker. They also have much more experience

[nonofyobiz]

^ also am I correct in saying that a reg 200NL online player wouldn't waste their time with 1-2 live bc it's just not really worth their time and/or boring as hell?
So basically you'd never see those players at those tables

[StarGrinder]

I'm not good at pot odds or mathematics when it comes to poker.

Then you are not good at poker. If you're not able to grasp the most simple theoretical concepts of the game, you will get crushed online because you don't have the most obvious physical tells on display and a table full of idiots. Drop down, learn the game. $200nl live is like $5nl online. Srsly.

[yungmath]

I agree with StarGrinder.. if you really want to get better at poker, pick up a book or 2... watch some videos and learn concepts that you never knew existed

[Fieldsy]

I ordered Dan Harrington's on Holdem Volume II. I have his other books on tourny play and loved them. So I am guessing I really need to get good at the mathematical aspect of holdem?

[Keith]

I think you lack comprehension. All through this thread people are telling you that the standard of play online far exceeds the standard of play live for the same stakes because players know and utilise more advanced concepts.Just knowing some of the maths involved won't suddenly have you beating 100NL online.

Bite the bullet drop down and learn to beat the lower online stakes then move up as you learn the concepts and apply them to beat the stake you are playing

[Fieldsy]

I understood what people were telling me. I'm going to drop down and play at a table I can compete in.

[Fieldsy]

YouTube - Daniel Negreanu on Live vs Online Poker

Pretty cool video of Daniel Negreanu talking about online vs live

[StarGrinder]

DN is a great live tournament player, but I'm fairly certain he'd get crushed by some of the top online pros.

[Fieldsy]

I like his mentioning of Scotty. I could totally see that guy being bad at online play. I play just like him...heh

[daven]

it's said above, but worth repeating.
The lowest stakes at a casino play at about the same level as the lowest stakes online. If you are going to play online then you should start at the bottom (5c big blinds) and work your way up. This will initially save you a lot of money, and long term may even make you some real $$ as you beat the stakes and move up.

[Fieldsy]

it's said above, but worth repeating.
The lowest stakes at a casino play at about the same level as the lowest stakes online. If you are going to play online then you should start at the bottom (5c big blinds) and work your way up. This will initially save you a lot of money, and long term may even make you some real $$ as you beat the stakes and move up.

That makes the most sense to me.

Anyways, I forgot to mention that I have played quite a bit of .25/.50 NL online and did pretty good. It seemed a lot easier than 1/2. Should I still go all the way down or what?

[daven]

Anyways, I forgot to mention that I have played quite a bit of .25/.50 NL online and did pretty good. It seemed a lot easier than 1/2. Should I still go all the way down or what?

You are right that .25-.50 is much easier than 1-2. Sounds like you are rolled for and have the risk tolerance to play higher than the absolute lowest of micro stakes. Also that you are smart enough to acknowledge the need to move down if you are losing money.

I recommend starting at .10-.25, one stake below where you feel confident of winning. Move up to 50nl once you have won a set number of buyins (10, 20, up to you) at 25nl. If you lose 6 buyins, move down.

also, i guess you have a tracker such as Holdem Manager or Poker Tracker, but if not then go to Tools of Poker here and find out about them. This will assist in monitoring your winnings etc as well as in review of your play

[Fieldsy]

I have thought about going one notch lower....it can't hurt right? I will give .10/.25 a shot.

Should I play several tables or just stick to one? I know its for personal preference. Would playing as much as I can help me more (several tables at a time) or sticking to one table and trying to learn to read online players more?

Thanks

[3 pairs should be a hand]

Do you understand bankroll management (BRM)? From what you have said above you have good sense live to know when to get out. You set a figure of profit for the night and get out.

Conversely online you seem to have been burning money over and over as if you have a bottomless pit.

This suggests to me you do not use BRM. As an example many sng players play 5% of their roll so with $100 they play a $5, when they get to 200 they can play a $10.

The first thing you need to do is set up your roll for online. You can work by %age but it is much better to think in terms of buy ins - setting something like 50 buy ins at whatever stake as your point, tho I woud suggest 100 buy ins is much better if you are going to grind because of variance.

NEXT: NO NO NO to multitabling at this stage in your online career. You don't have the math as you have stated. Not often but often enough you will have decisions to make on more than one table at a time. This WILL cost you money -you will be thinking too long on one table and may even time out others before you can get to them.

Also your concentration starts at 100% so once you multitable you are splitting your concentration and may well miss vital information while not concentrating on a particular table. Would you multitable live? If not then why think you can do it online when you have so much work to do on your game before you should even consider moving to that stage.

It is much better if you have just one table and you watch that table like you would live. The main thing about online is betting patterns. Bets tell stories. If they don't make sense they are telling the story the bettor thinks they are eg check all way to river and then a bet - why? It's usually a bluff.

MATHS: There are two ways to think. 1. In odds 2. In percentages (there's more than that) and you should know these by heart. They are easy to learn. Look up probabilities. Eg The odds that a hand will be made is always x/1 at any point and you can compare this to the odds to call again easy. The pot is y it is x to call - divide y by x and you have your odds. Wherever the odds to make your hand is less than the odds to call matematical you should call. %eg You have an open ended straight on the flop. There is a well known equation 2+2=4. You add up your outs here they are 8 so odds to hit by river is 8x4 BUT imp odds to hit on turn is 8x2 then after turn it is 8x2 again. If your call is a lower % of the pot than the % to hit mathematical the answer is to call (we won't go into play such as reraising here). The 2+2=4 is simplistic and not entirely accurate but you get a feel. More than 13 outs you are favourite less you are not.

Read and study. Watch videos on ring games. Don't be mesmerised by Negreanu. I do like the guy but he is no expert on ring. Online moves too fast. Moves come and go and you have to keep up with current strategy. Books and magazines with strategy are essential.

And to end. You are obviously no fool. To be winning live is certainly an acheivement. The skills you have are transferrable. There are online tells too. 1. Betting patterns. 2. Timing tells. However, just as in live tells can be false or deliberately misleading so they can online. You must be a good reader of players live and once you have played long enough online you will pick them up too.

So get the fundamentals first. Build a roll. Move up if unsuccessful move down til you can try move u again. And then you can try mutitabling. If you find you are bored playing one table then have the discipline you have live, do something else where you won't lose concentration.

Just some foods for thought - gl we all learn everyday.

[Fieldsy]

Wow, thank you for the long and quality post

I want to learn the mathematics for online play. Live games are a different animal in my opinion. I get knowledge out of people by talking, listening, and watching expressions. With online its like you are playing against a computer. They have no emotion.

[rpm]

go to the beginner's circle, open up the digest thread at the top of the page and read/study/absorb "about pot odds and implied odds when playing draws" and "how to: analyse calling an all-in". these are perhaps the most basic mathematical concepts to learn and will get you off to a good start in your understanding of the game. it would benefit you to read/think about almost every single article in that thread, by the way. those ones mentioned are just the main ones that come to mind as being relevant about the mathematical aspect.

[Fieldsy]

Already read a ton of those articles....they were great

The concern I have about the mathematical/odds about poker is...What if you are up against some person who just plays poker with their gut feeling and will call you to the end no matter what?

[kevinanchi1]

Thanks for sharing the information, do u have any videos other than youtube, actually as i am a newbie to poker i am looking for poker tutorials

[Fieldsy]

Update: I am currently playing .10/.25 now and feel much more comfortable.

[daven]

What if you are up against some person who just plays poker with their gut feeling and will call you to the end no matter what?

you will make money, don't be bluffing against stations. ez game. Value bet and crush da micros

[Fieldsy]

my biggest downfall is still chasing flushes and straights. If I can fix that problem I will make a lot more money.

[daven]

my biggest downfall is still chasing flushes and straights. If I can start hitting them I will make a lot more money.

fyp

1) fold pre
2) stop dreaming about implied odds, make calls based on pot odds. If you need a hand on that - irc

[Fieldsy]

what does fyp mean?

[jyms]

start reading a lot more about pot odds, the 2-4 rule and preflop play and you will know when you can call and chase and when you can't. watch some of the vids here on FTR and see how others play. Go to IRC and get a free sweat from someone who knows way more than you. Stop posting and start reading a ton around here.

[Fieldsy]

Okay let me see if I get this (2-4 rule)

Heads up, pot is 2 bucks, other guy bets 1 and I am on an open ended straight draw (after flop).

If I called then my pot odds would be 1/4 (25%) and the percentage of hitting my straight on the turn would be 8x2 (16%) so I should fold?

[daven]

Okay let me see if I get this (2-4 rule)

Heads up, pot is 2 bucks, other guy bets 1 and I am on an open ended straight draw (after flop).

If I called then my pot odds would be 1/4 (25%) and the percentage of hitting my straight on the turn would be 8x2 (16%) so I should fold?

fyp = fixed your post

your example is perfect. Now, how much extra money would you have to get out of him if you hit for the call to start showing a profit (this is the implied odds thing that people have a tendency to overestimate). Give it a go, if you get it wrong someone will correct it.

Also, note how this changes if his bet of $1 had put him all in. In white below (highlight it to read), but figure it out for yourself first.

it would mean your pot odds would be 1/4 (still) but you would have two chances of hitting your straight (turn and river) so your odds of hitting would be about 8x2x2 = 32%. As 32 > 25, it's then a call

[Fieldsy]

first question I have no idea honestly. I would guess that I had to make that 9% up since it was 25% to 16%? Might sound dumb

2nd question...I'd easily call since that would be the last bet to make...making my % higher.

[daven]

copied your questions to their own thread - could be more useful for you AND for others

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...wo-181871.html

[BulDawg]

Fieldsy, my advise to u is play LIVE poker if u have that great opportunity, dont mess with that "online poker" lol

[bigteif]

2/5 live is about the same as .25/.50 It's pretty weak. The thing is most sharks don't play lower limit live cause there isn't enough money to be made. Plus they want to see lots of hands. Casino poker gets a lot more people who just want to learn and don't trust online play. People don't want to sit around on a computer when there playing poker if they don't win they actually want to have more fun, thus the fish stick around a lot longer. Like this guy[/IMG]

[goldenhorseshoe]

Hi guys, I'm new in this forum and it's nice to read all your post here in this forum it is very interesting you can learn everything about poker thanks for your sharing experience , tips, advice and maybe strategies on playing poker.

[Dan Abnormal]

Also never forget. Live poker, you see the cards, while online the cards are always spinning like a slot machine. THe 2 games are totally different, live you are playing poker, online youre playing a game and what is the age group of typical gamers. Imagine live if after your delt pocket cards, the dealer kept shuffling the cards non stop through every street. Your typical online player needs database programs, Table ninja's, Trackers, bots, and everything else. do any of these programs work at your local card room or do you have to keep your own notes.

Live is POKER and thats why youre better LIVE. Online poker is a game, I love seeing the internet kids hit the card room with their cool lingo and chip throwing techniques and and hour later leaving the table cause they dropped a bunch of cash. Time for them to go back home flip on the PC, all the tracking software to tell them the frequencies of their opponents and start gaming again. Why people put all this stock into online poker being real poker is just mind blowing. When you use words like algorithms for online poker, can you figure out the algorithms of your local card room. OH YEA I forgot real card that you see. Also how often at your local card room do you see someone holding KK someone else holding AA and someone else holding AK and the board puts up KTA Q J (meaning how often does the card room gear hands for actions and if its all random, how does it gear for action).

[Keith]

Also never forget. Live poker, you see the cards, while online the cards are always spinning like a slot machine.

What????? i've never seen spinning cards at stars ,tilt,ipoker, etc,

THe 2 games are totally different, live you are playing poker, online youre playing a game and what is the age group of typical gamers. Imagine live if after your delt pocket cards, the dealer kept shuffling the cards non stop through every street.

what difference would that make? you still don't know what cards are going to be dealt to the table

Your typical online player needs database programs, Table ninja's, Trackers, bots, and everything else. do any of these programs work at your local card room or do you have to keep your own notes.

rubbish you can cut down the number of tables you play and develope reads on your opponents just the same , but are limited to betting patterns , and timing tells without the physiological tells that you can get live.
the programs are there to help play more tables . Live you get to play what ?20-30 hands per hour . Online you can easily play 500
+ hands per hour.Making notes on that many hands atthe tables would be difficult, making notes on your live opponents would be easy.

Live is POKER and thats why youre better LIVE. Online poker is a game, I love seeing the internet kids hit the card room with their cool lingo and chip throwing techniques and and hour later leaving the table cause they dropped a bunch of cash.

And are they conscious of the physical tells that they are giving off to experienced live players? Are they even winning online players , you'll never know. Just the same as you are probably not a winning online player.Both forms of the game ARE poker, you just need slighthly different skills to excel in either frm , justthe same as in cash, SNG's MTTs etc.

Time for them to go back home flip on the PC, all the tracking software to tell them the frequencies of their opponents and start gaming again. Why people put all this stock into online poker being real poker is just mind blowing. When you use words like algorithms for online poker, can you figure out the algorithms of your local card room. OH YEA I forgot real card that you see. Also how often at your local card room do you see someone holding KK someone else holding AA and someone else holding AK and the board puts up KTA Q J (meaning how often does the card room gear hands for actions and if its all random, how does it gear for action).

Because you don't understand basic probability theory.Live you will see very few hands in a night or relatively few in a year. online you have millions of players playing multiple times the live number of hands per night or per year. As a result collectively the rarest of possibilities IS going to happen and someone will post the hand asking if they did something wrong, or bragging about how they did well.

if the same happens to you playing live , wheres the proof? Just another anecdotal tall story , take a video camera with you and then you can prove your story when you post it to youtube.

[Dan Abnormal]

Dude when sites admit hands are geared for action. The word poker goes out the window and it becomes just a game. You can throw all this so many hands an hour jive all you want. Im sure if you keep shuffing the deck and dealing over. 10,000 tables at a time live, Lets see how often you get all the HANDS GEARED FOR ACTION. GEARED is gamer stuff.

OH yea and lets not forget all the extra gear (software) a person needs to try to convince themeslelves they are good poker players. Hmm I need a program to know a persons frequency, I need a program to play more tables then humanely possible. I need a program for this. The best was I use this program and that program. One program set the bet for the person and the other told him that persons stats. "BUT YOU STILL GOTTA PUSH THE BUTTON TO MAKE THE BET" OH boy Real POker.

Once all the extra software is banned, once sites themeselves arent accused of wrong doing, Isnt even Hansen being sued for something at FT (I think I read that somewhere, Im not sure) Until its just player vs player with no extra software needed. ENJOY PLAYING A GAME. but dont ever call it poker. RUSH POKER GEEZE make more and more inane games

OH YEA are your 500 hands an hour with or without the help of software. YEA WHAT I THOUGHT

IM just amazed how much software a person needs to try to convince themselves they are poker players. HEY TRY THIS. AND IF the cards are spinning after the cards are delt they can decide to make anyone a winning player they want to and you would never know. GEARED FOR ACTION CASE CLOSED

[Keith]

so you are saying ISF isn't a poker player because he developed his skills online. His recent final table must be a pure fluke. You sound like a losing online poker player who can only explain it by saying that online poker is rigged because you are a winning live player.

[jyms]

Hands are not geared for action. Where in the hell did you hear this. You have 2 days to present truth to your argument that "hands are geared for action" or you will be banned for spreading lies and fear mongering. How's that?

Even the best players in the world, like Doyle, Esfandiari, Negraneau and the likes will tell you, the internet players are stronger technically, have extremely sound skills and are better players. Most pros are now internet players. The reason why most people can win live and not online, is because the players online are better. I would stake my life on the fact that any $200NL online reg could beat 95% of regular live players that play at any stake and have never played an online game, just by the sheer volume of hands played and the difficulty of the stake in general vs the people that play 150 hands a week

[Dan Abnormal]

Hands are not geared for action. Where in the hell did you hear this. You have 2 days to present truth to your argument that "hands are geared for action" or you will be banned for spreading lies and fear mongering. How's that?

Even the best players in the world, like Doyle, Esfandiari, Negraneau and the likes will tell you, the internet players are stronger technically, have extremely sound skills and are better players. Most pros are now internet players. The reason why most people can win live and not online, is because the players online are better. I would stake my life on the fact that any $200NL online reg could beat 95% of regular live players that play at any stake and have never played an online game, just by the sheer volume of hands played and the difficulty of the stake in general vs the people that play 150 hands a week

You talking bout pros making a ton of money by wearing poker site gear. Yea I bet they will tell you online poker is the best thing in the world.

BTW Im just a fair online player, but I dont need to fool myslef into thinking im a great poker player by using a ton of different software programs to tell me everything about the person Im playing, Geeze were do you draw the line. I bet some of you have 20 programs running at one time plus sharkscope and sites like that and then you can say WOW IM A GREAT PLAYER LOOK WHAT I DID ALL BY MYSELF. Yes all by yourself

GEARED for action is all over forums on every poker site you can read - What ya think I just made that term up. Isnt there a thread here about poker star being rigged on wikipedia and of course everyone thinks its made up

THE BEST IS- its not rigged but they do speed up the action to get people out of torunament faster to make room for more tournies. HMMMM and how do they do this. GEAR FOR ACTION. There is so much about this everyone but you online "POKER WONDERS" all refuse to believe anything but your own hype

[jyms]

You have 47 hours to present truth, not what other forums have said.

[Dan Abnormal]

There's much more behind the scenes that makes playing at FTP unpleasant (frequent collusion, setup hands, EV bias, etc.).


just one example of other posts- setup hands what does that mean.


dude live in your dream world and think your playing a legit game if you cant even see the poker board with all the extra software your probably using. OMG I only have 72 hours - Just playing online poker all you need is 72 seconds to see this nonsense OH yea I forgot its the volume of delt hands. You gamers are too funny

[lolzzz_321]

What site says hands are GEARED for action?

[Sam Henno]

This thread really interested me because I suffer from a similar problem. I always seem to do well live...and then struggle online, especially in cash games.

I spoke to a UK pro (I'm in London!) about this and he suggested there were two likely reasons:

1) Online is a better standard (as other posters have already suggested) so it's much harder to be profitable than it is live, where you have other more obvious advantages such as tells etc.
2) You tend to play much looser online than you would live, especially if you're an amateur, because in a live game you're worried about other people laughing/criticising your play. As a result, newer players tend only to play the nuts - or at least very strong hands - live, whereas online, in the comfort of their own living rooms, they are far more likely to chase draws etc

After hearing this, I tightened up a LOT at home...and became a better online player overnight.

[Dan Abnormal]

Are you good at magic the gathering or Halo then you wont be good at online poker, ONLY PLAY LIVE OMG If you say that you get banned

[jasmark80]

Hi,


I've just played my first live sessions of 1/2 NL the past few days, and it looks to me like they're playing around the level of .02/.05 cent players for intelligence, but are far more aggro. So far I've just been trying to limp in what I can for 2pair and straights to catch people stacking off light, and then just playing nitty solid poker, they don't seem to adjust much.


_________________________

[bjsaust]

GEARED for action is all over forums on every poker site you can read - What ya think I just made that term up. Isnt there a thread here about poker star being rigged on wikipedia and of course everyone thinks its made up

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