Playing the blinds

[OngBonga]

OK, so one trouble I'm having at 2nl is deciding when to play junk on the sb to limps or the bb to a min raise.

Say, I pick up 83o on the sb. How many limpers do I need to see before I make up the blind? Right now I tend to call any two on the sb to three limpers on laggy tables and four if we're a bit tighter. Is this a leak?

How about the ol' min raise on the bb? I'm even looser here, I'll often take 92o to a flop heads up on my bb if some guy mins me.

It's not that I'm bothered about my blind, I can happily fold 2c away and not lose sleep, but at some point calling is good value. OK, heads up with 92 isn't great value, but we're nearly always seeing a cbet if we check, so there's a level of implied odds if we flop big.

But I'm curious to see how you regs deal with this common spot. Am I pissing money away calling 82o four a cent five handed?

[OngBonga]

Oh, and also, what if we're looking at mid-strength junk, like K4, J9, Q8 etc? We can call these to less limpers on the sb, yes? Especially suited? Or are we better off raising these sort of average hands in a limpfest?

[StarGrinder]

Am I pissing money away calling 82o four a cent five handed?

Yes. It's not about cents, it's about big blinds/bets. Stop thinking about it in terms of money. It doesn't make it right.

Limp behind with good drawing hands, not junk. You will never flop big enough times to justify all the money lost, and you're out of position so it will be harder to extract money when you do. I would love to see your stats by position and how much $ you're bleeding from the blinds.

[bhaley66]

This pertains: Blind Stealing 102

You are definitely pissing money away playing so many hands. As to exactly what hands to play, and how to play them, it depends on your opponents and their tenancies. With hands such as 82o, what is your PLAN? Do you plan on flopping 2 pair or better? Sounds like a crappy plan to me... Make a plan for every hand before you make your first decision. Doing so will make things much more clear.

[OngBonga]

My plan? Yes, to flop 2pr or better. Crappy plan? Fair enough. But if everyone limps round to us on the small blind, are we not making a mistake in folding? At what point does the call become the mistake?

It's interesting, after the first response to this thread I thought I'd better go check my positional stats. I haven't got a great sample of hands yet to go by (1398), but the results surprised me.



As you can see, I'm making most of my money from the blinds! It's the middle positions where I'm pissing money away.

This is a small sample over just a few days, so I acknowledge it doesn't really help a great deal with this discussion.

[StarGrinder]

It would be a surprise over say 20k hands. Anyone can luckbox their way into the win column over a session/1k hands. Study that link above, and realize why it's right/wrong to continue playing this way.

How the hell are you running 21/9 from UTG in FR? Gadzooks.

[OngBonga]

"How the hell are you running 21/9 from UTG in FR? Gadzooks."

I don't know. I don't really understand how I've only played 33 hands UTG yet it's 21 VPIP. I fold the vast majority of hands UTG, but to be fair my session two night's ago was a little disregarding towards position because I was making a ton both ip and oop due largely to a table full of loose-passive fish who would fold to a cbet every time unless they had top pair+.

Ya I can sure see how a single session can horribly distort a small sample of hands.

I'll see if I can pull up some stats from my grind at FT a couple of years ago, I had a good sample of hands after grinding from nothing to $250 before blowing the lot on my mtt addiction (I sought help and can now say I'm down to $1 a day max!).

[OngBonga]

Yeah here we go...



I'm not quite sure how to interpret this. Am I making money or losing from the blinds?

[bhaley66]

In this months graphs thread, I asked about red lines, unknowing that there has been so much talk about it. I was pointed to this thread. Check it out, there is quite a bit of talk about how it is more or less expected to lose money in the blinds. You need to fold the blinds a lot, but exactly how much depends on many things...

[StarGrinder]

Holy shit turkey you're in the green w/o blinds.

[spoonitnow]

There's a program called Flopzilla that has a 7 day trial that shows how often you flop different stuff that can be helpful in thinking about this kind of thing.

[Icanhastreebet]

Tight up everywhere your playing wayyy too many hands. Narrow ur VPIP/PFR to something like 12/10 until you begin to learn how to handread etc and you'll be way better off.

But anyway wtf? lol you play 26/8 but you fold AQ OTb to a highjack open, co flat? You sir are such luhlz

[OngBonga]

"but you fold AQ OTb to a highjack open, co flat?"

No, we've determined that I don't fold it five handed.

12/10? That sounds almost... nitty? Yeah I know I can tighten up a lot, I'm playing way too many scs, but I don't wanna be playing just quality hands, or I don't get action when I get stuck in. I don't raise too often with junk, but I don't want to cut it out my game altogether, because when I show junk after firing three bullets, people take notes and then pay me off fifteen hands later when I flop a set. Someone who's running at 12/10 on my table is someone I'm looking to avoid getting involved with really, I'm trying to take on the 44/4 or the 78/52, the people who can't fold flush draws or top pair, the people who really pay me off. Mr 12/10 is less likely to make mistakes when he's drawing by calling when he's very much priced out. Mr 12/10 is more likely to be running a HUD than mr 78/52. Mr 12/10 folds a gutshot to all but a min bet. Mr 78/52 will pay the pot for a gutshot, or maybe even shove it.

Ya fine 26 is too high, I'll try and get it below 20 first and see where that's getting me. But I really don't wanna fall asleep playing little over one in ten hands, not at 2nl anyway where I can value bet junk all day long against chasers and run a profit, and my looseish image gets me paid off when I got top pair beat.

A good example... last night I showed down a junk hand after he called me down with ace fackin high. A few hands later, I raise the button with 23s, bb calls. Flop is a monster, 245 two clubs, giving me bottom pair and an open ended straight flush draw. He bets, I raise, he calls. Turn is 6. Bingo. He bets, I raise, he calls. River is Q. I bet like $1.70 into something like $2.20 and he makes the call with 77. Does he make that call if he didn't see my 93o try and shove AK off a 2pr board just a few hands previous? Am I even in a raised pot with 23s on the button if I'm running at 12/10? Over 130 bb profit with 23s. Dude pretty much any hand can be profitable at 2nl. I'm definitely running at a profit with 23s at 2nl, so I consider it a +ev decision. It's not because of the strength of my hand compared to theirs or any shit like that, it's because I represent a range of hands, and the hand I have is not even in that range! So I can make him fold to an Axx or Kxx flop more often than not, sometimes I can make a flush draw c/c/f, or occasionally take him to the fookin cleaners and win 130+ bb against a stupid pocket pair when I hit a straight because their range does not include the hand that's beating them, giving them a distorted equity value and forcing a mistake. Either that or because he's a fish who calls any pair at the river for 85bb. Whatever, I can't win these pots if I fold pre flop. Ya for sure 23 is gonna miss in spectacular fasion all too often, but if I'm averaging 5bb lost every time I fold it, and winning over 100bb when I hit big. Nut straights with 23 of course have the added bonus of getting paid off by a naked ace and definitely aces up, especially if it's a raised pot.

But, I accept I need to keep these kind of moves to the BU or at the worst the CO.

That first chart is the one to keep an eye on, I'm running at 28/11 on PS, so I'll cut out the limps with speculative hands. The only thing I refuse to do is fold a small pocket pair UTG (or at all to an unraised pot). 22 UTG? I'll limp. Screw it, at higher levels this is gonna be -ev and therefore a pissy leak, but not at 2nl where people nearly always overvalue their hands. I hit a set, what, once in nine? Just gotta average ten bb net gain per pot when it wins and it's a profit. Easy at 2nl, especially if some 75/55 donk raised and hit. Pocket pairs are gold dust at 2nl to anything up to a raise to 10c against laggy fish.

[Imthenewfish]

The reason you're showing a profit at 32s at 2nl isn't because of your image, it's because everyone your playing against sucks so much that you have so much implied odds with like any hand that you could run like 40/30 and still show a good winrate. Ffs though, don't focus on maximizing your winrate at this level because every adjustment like this that you make you're just going to have to change when you move up to 5nl in like 2 weeks. btw im not really sure if you implied it, but people running 12/10 do get paid when they make their monster hands at 2nl because NOONES PAYING ATTENTION OR TAKING NOTES LOLOLOLOL

[bhaley66]

+1

Quit trying to argue a stupid point... These people are trying to make you a better player so that you can move up, and maximize your winrate at higher stakes, not trying to maximize your winrate at 2nl where the main objective is to build a strong foundation.

You will not build a strong foundation playing shit like this, and ignoring/dismissing/arguing these these peoples advice!

[OngBonga]

"...at 2nl because NOONES PAYING ATTENTION OR TAKING NOTES LOLOLOLOL"

What, you mean I'm the only one?

"...it's because everyone your playing against sucks so much that you have so much implied odds..."

Yeah ok, that's the reason indeed. But, did my crazy 93o move on my bb a few hands ago against AK help me get paid off here? Fish might not be taking notes, but they still lol at bad bluffs gone wrong, and it might well have still been fresh in his memory. Having said that, all the more reason to fold this river for him. What, I've either got a real hand that he's losing to, or a junk hand that he's losing to. Yeah the more I think about it the more I think this guy is just an idiot, as opposed making a hero call against what he thought was AK.

[Imthenewfish]

the situation you described is actually a really standard call for like 96% of players at 2nl. they see that they haz overpair to board when you were betting so their hand is nutz. Your crazy 93o triple barrel bluff was just monkey spew that, like all spew, would try to be justified by some other reason later

[OngBonga]

+1

Quit trying to argue a stupid point... These people are trying to make you a better player so that you can move up, and maximize your winrate at higher stakes, not trying to maximize your winrate at 2nl where the main objective is to build a strong foundation.

You will not build a strong foundation playing shit like this, and ignoring/dismissing/arguing these these peoples advice!

Fair comment. Hey I'm not ignoring/dismissing/arguing anything for the sake of it. I do take in what's said, and share my opinion in return. I'm here to learn, believe me. I already am learning. My comments of course are going to be all over the place, sometimes I might give some solid advice, or make some good contributions, sometimes the laggy moron in me will rear it's ugly head. But, I am here to improve, please don't be in any doubt about that.

I think you make a good point here about winrate and solid foundation. I might be winning more money with junk at 2nl than if I fold it, but I appreciate it might cost me dear when I step up if I cannot adapt my game quickly enough. I don't expect junk hands and crazy moves to be profitable at 5nl and above.

Like I say, I take in what's said. Maybe I need a battering at 5nl before I really take it in, maybe not, that remains to be seen. Let's see when I step up if I can drop the bad habits and still playing winning poker.

[OngBonga]

the situation you described is actually a really standard call for like 96% of players at 2nl. they see that they haz overpair to board when you were betting so their hand is nutz. Your crazy 93o triple barrel bluff was just monkey spew that, like all spew, would try to be justified by some other reason later

No, I'm not trying to justify my stupid monkey spew, I know it's a dumbass move to try and defend a 2c blind with junk, just like it's a dumbass move to call ace king down when it miss miss misses. We were both idiots that hand. But, there is a good chance this showdown influenced the bb here. I dunno, I'm folding this river every time in his shoes, by now I'm thinking I made two dumbass calls on the flop and turn, and I'm just glad there's an overcard down to make the fold easier. If he thinks he's good, then he should get fruity on the turn where he still has what most people would consider something resembling a strong hand, he's got an overpair with a solidish draw as a suckout route if he's dominated by 88+. I'm folding it every time unless I saw the crazy mf go wild on his bb with a spaz hand. But even then, if junk is in the bu's range here, well his 77 looks in even worse shape than if it wasn't. Ya I'm folding this river every time.

Maybe I do give too much credit for the observational skills of my opponents at 2nl. I imagine the regs that I have 200+ hands on with solid stats are paying attention, that they have HUDS running and notes and whatnot. I can't be alone when I'm taking notes about flush chasers or those who shove 66 utg, and I know I'm not the only one with a HUD. But really, am I in the minority?

[bhaley66]

But really, am I in the minority?

Yes

[Micro2Macro]

You are WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too loose from the SB.

You also must be running pretty hot from that position to not be losing more than what you are.

[OngBonga]

"You also must be running pretty hot from that position to not be losing more than what you are."

Is it not just a case of huge implied odds with any two due to 2nl fish never folding top pair, as pointed out in another thread? Yeah I have been taking in the comments in here and I have tightened up lots on the sb, I've stopped making up the blind with complete junk, narrowing my calling range to s-conns (up to 2 gappers), small pairs and broadway. As for the bb, I'm folding to min raises if I have junk too, again similar sort of range for making up a min raise and only if we're multi-way, although small pairs I'll flat all day if the raiser is stacked.

Honestly, I'm not trying to justify calling junk, but is there really not a point where pot odds demand we make up the blind? Five limpers? Six? More so with suited hands maybe? I'm asking these questions because if calling half a blind to four or five limpers is going to be a leak at higher levels, then fair enough I need to cut it out. But if folding is a mistake (ie I'm folding when I have correct calling pot odds), then I should call. Of course, the old it depends is gonna rise to the surface here, loose players that pay off 2pr+ mean higher implied odds, whereas tight players who fold 66 to the sb when he's raising a 445 flop are gonna make that call with 42o more expensive in the long run. But honestly, how many 2nl players fold 66 in this spot? That's why I'm not pissing money away on the blinds. It won't be this easy at 5nl and up, I don't imagine.

An added point... I very rarely make up the sb when it's folded round to me, I'll either raise or fold this spot the vast majority of the time. I never know what to do with ace rag in this spot though, I confess. Suited I'll raise it, but some crap like A2o on the sb when folded round full ring, I'm often folding. Is this correct?

[JKDS]

The biggest problem is that you dont have the implied odds or pot odds you're talking about with most hands...and many hands that you should be calling arent just for the odds you're getting (like say JTs).

Examine the case where we have 23o in the sb and theres 5 limpers. We're getting 9:1 right now or something.

We hit 2pair or better about 4% of the time. Kay, cool. So by calling the 1 cent, we need to make up 25 somewhere...or 16 since 9's there already.

No! Its not quiet that simple. Our draws to 2pair or better are not to the nuts, nor do they have massive equity over other hands. Consider A9's equity on a 932r, what about As9s on 9c3s2s?

Further when we hit these types of hands, we cripple the deck and make it difficult to get money in post. When we flop trips...sayyyy on a 922 board...what can our opponent have that can put money in? We dont want just that 25c to make our call b/e, we want to make the call profitable.

Also, in cases where both ourselves and our opponent make a nice hand, we're behind and drawing slim. Examine A2 vs 23 on that 922 board.

Thats basically it.

[Belt]

Say, I pick up 83o on the sb. How many limpers do I need to see before I make up the blind?

27 or so I guess.

How about the ol' min raise on the bb? I'm even looser here, I'll often take 92o to a flop heads up on my bb if some guy mins me.

Please, don't.

But I'm curious to see how you regs deal with this common spot.

The spot you described is not common for good regs.

Am I pissing money away calling 82o four a cent five handed?

Yes.

[OngBonga]

"The spot you described is not common for good regs."

What, good regs don't get 23o on the sb and see a few limps? They must be good to avoid this! What you mean to say is good regs just fold, yes?

"Please, don't."

Ok, I won't.

Seriously, thanks for the input. I'm not blindly making calls with any two on the sb because I'm already in for a cent, there is some thought going into every check/call/raise I make. I try to apply logic every time I invest money into a pot, but there's a good chance I'm applying flawed logic, which is the prime reason I try to explain my thought process every time I post, even if it might come across as disregarding the previous posts! I'm more than happy for you guys to tear my logic apart if it helps me improve.

"...not trying to maximize your winrate at 2nl where the main objective is to build a strong foundation."

This comment has really hit home. I suspect many profitable spots at 2nl will fast become a massive leak at higher levels, and I wonder if this is where a lot of people come undone as they climb the ladder. I hope to not become a victim of this myself, and appreciate all the comments intended to help me avoid this.

[PlayToWin]

I hang out with a friend of mine sometimes while he plays 2NL. You're WAY ahead of his thought processes. He only thinks about his cards.

If he get's bored, which is constantly, he starts playing more and more trash. He only thinks about the money, not bb's. He justifies playing crap because it's only a few cents. He doesn't ever study or read FTR, etc.

If you find yourself getting bored, even while constantly evaluating the play of others, you could try opening up another table.

[OngBonga]

Yeah it's not really boredom that makes me think 23s or whatever is playable, I justify it by pointing to all the idiots who call 77 etc when it's crushed by my junk, the people who make 2nl implied odds city. But I realise there will be much less people willing to pay me off at higher levels in many spots i'm currently exploiting.

I've moved onto mtabling now I'm a bit more rolled, I'm past $50 now and so I take 100bb onto four tables and grind away, and with the feedback I'm getting here, there's certainly more discipline in my game. I am folding my small blind with junk much more often, though I'm still looser than UTG, where I've tightened up massively.

I haven't decided whether to step up to 5nl at $100 or keep slogging at 2nl until I'm rolled up for 10nl, I'll probably ask for some opinions on that when I'm at $100!

[Micro2Macro]

you do not have 'huge implied odds' with shit like 83o.

regardless of your '2nl players are fish' logic you are way too loose from the SB

You cannot justify playing such trash OOP it just doesn't flop well enough ever. And fwiw 23s vs 77:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

41,095,296 games 0.109 secs 377,021,064 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 18.107% 17.42% 00.69% 7158600 282432.00 { 32s }
Hand 1: 81.893% 81.21% 00.69% 33371832 282432.00 { 77 }


---

so 32s OOP is playable eh? Ever heard of reverse implied odds? You need to take these into account also, not just the equity disadvantage you're going to have on every flop plus all the akward spots you get in when you flop something that isn't a monster OOP multiway which btw I am extremely confident you lack the skills to handle such situations effectively.

[OngBonga]

Micro.

23s is merely an example, and it's not a habit to play the hand. During my grind at FT, I was way looser and was playing 23s by habit. Out of the 139 times I saw the hand in 47k hands, I played it 63% of the time for a total loss of $1.71.

During my current grind, I've picked 23s up 20 times in 5.5k hands, and it's been played 30% (six times) for a return of $0.71 profit, of course due to the massive pot I mention in this thread. Twice on the button, twice on the CO, twice on the HJ. I'm dumping it now on the HJ and CO, and only playing it (to no raise or any limpers I might add) on the button, if the blinds are either fishy and pay off always when they have top pair, or loose passive and call raises and fold too often often to flop cbets. I'm not playing it, or any crap like it, oop any longer.

The reason I'm posting the comments I'm making is because I want to improve my game now I'm grinding again, this time at PS. I've been told fifteen+ times in this site that I'm way too loose, these hands need to be folded, etc, and I've taken it on board, and stated that clearly in this thread. Why are you telling me what's already been told and what's sunk in? I do appreciate your comments of course, but it's already been taken on board. You're a bit late, hang your coat up and grab a drink!

Yeah I know all about reverse implied odds. Sometimes we flop 239 or whatever and he has 99. Can I get away from this? I don't know. I've paid off with 23s before, I can be honest there. However, I'm fairly confident that any hole-card 2pr at 2nl is going to win more than it loses so long as a) the flush is either not possible or unlikely b) straight is either not possible or unlikely and c) the board has not paired, counterfeiting our 2pr. So long as this criteria is met, I can happily pay off a set with 2pr because it's not going to happen often enough to seriously effect the winrate, and losing to a set with 2pr is as likely with AQ as with 23.

Now, the reverse implied odds you talk of, this is more significant with 23s because if the board pairs we have no hand (or a full house!), whereas higher 2pr can still be considered reasonably strong when the board pairs below their values, such as AQ on AQ22 board. And it's easier to find ourselves up against a stronger 2pr. This makes 23s much less playable than AQ, I know that. But it's a situational thing. If I think I can get the muppet on the bb to call a x4 raise with any two and fold the flop twice every three hands to a half pot bet, then why not raise his blind with baby scs? Occasionally he calls the blind with 77, and I'm in bad shape. Fine, but he folds to paint unless he hits set, and pays me off on a low board because there's no way I have 23. If I've raised it on the button against 77, we're taking it down more often than 18% of the time.

Look, really, I'm tightening up as we speak. I know that junk is not playable oop. I'm folding my sb and bb when I have junk. I'm playing weak scs only on the button, and only if the situtaion seems exploitable. I opened this thread to help get a better understanding of whether junk is playable to small raises and limps on the blinds, and I got my answer, which I'm very grateful and pleased about. I've improved since this thread begun, because I've saved countless cents by folding 93 72 J4 on the sb in a limpfest.

"which btw I am extremely confident you lack the skills to handle such situations effectively."

Yes indeed. That's why I'm here bro. Cheers for your comments.