25nl decent hand vs pretty tight reg/tough board OOP

[Nobody~~]

Reg-caller is 16/13 over like 130.
Opener is loose and sucks, not a monkey, or nit just obviously doesn't know basic hand strength/odds etc.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($25)
SB ($42.95)
Hero (BB) ($35)
UTG ($19.90)
MP ($27.55)
CO ($10.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8, 8
UTG bets $0.50, 2 folds, Button calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.25

Flop: ($1.60) 8, J, K (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button bets $1, Hero raises to $3.50, 1 fold, Button calls $2.50

Turn: ($8.60) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, [color=#CC3333]Button bets $5.50[/color Hero?

Seems like everything in his range besides maybe an unlikely AK/KJ is ahead of me. c/f'ing seems pretty gross, and c/r seems like I'm getting it in against JJ and flush pretty much every time. Do I need to not be c/x-ing? rather b/x?

[Nobody~~]

No love from the new mod?

[Fnord]

Stop check/raising your best hands in 3-way pots.

bet/call and check/call are both fine turn lines depending on what you think of the button. Not folding here.

[Nobody~~]

But MP was playing alot of hands and this flop smacks his c-bet range, I mean, I know it's 3 way and all, and I don't remember that he c-bet rediculously or never, but I'm assuming it was a decent majority of the time since he was fairly aggressive as a player(no stats just noticed). Do you still not see a c/r on this board? I can see clearly donking makes my range wider though(In consideration of BTN, not MP he wouldn't notice).

[bjsaust]

I would bet this flop, last thing you want is for it to check through.

[Nobody~~]

Alright cool, makes sense now. Appreciate it guys.

[surviva316]

i don't know how you can assume that villain is cbetting this. it's barely even a cbet if he does because he only min-raised pre and hasn't really shown that much strength. and if you think this is a good board to cbet in a 3-way pot, then you should prolly do some studying up on cbetting.

leading out this flop reps a humongous range and sets are at the very tippity top of it. maybe tight villain has JJ, but he prolly woulda gotten it in on the flop. he doesn't have KK. if he has two diamonds then we have outs. in other words, never ever ever check/fold your set in this spot. also you shouldn't c/r here because that's the best way to fold out everything that you beat.

b/c or c/c are your best options, and i like betting a lot more because it's the best way to get value from AK, etc. if you check, worse hands are checking behind you, and better hands are pricing you out of your redraw.

[Nobody~~]

i don't know how you can assume that villain is cbetting this. it's barely even a cbet if he does because he only min-raised pre and hasn't really shown that much strength. and if you think this is a good board to cbet in a 3-way pot, then you should prolly do some studying up on cbetting.

Opener is loose and sucks, not a monkey, or nit just obviously doesn't know basic hand strength/odds etc.

We can assume he hasn't taken alot of time to study what boards to c-bet and what boards not to c-bet. I don't mind blunt harshness, but not from the blind.

I definitely bet this flop. I fire a 1/2 psb on the turn and think long and hard whether I shove or fold the turn to a raise. If he flats, then we *probably* have the best hand.

Just my .02

Stop check/raising your best hands in 3-way pots.

I kind of disagree because I'll cbet this 3 way and expect around ~50% folds
and if utg checks, I expect BU to bet

[Nobody~~]

I'll cbet this 3 way and expect around ~50% folds

if you think this is a good board to cbet in a 3-way pot, then you should prolly do some studying up on cbetting.

I'm getting mixed signals, what should I think?

[Fnord]

Stop check/raising your best hands in 3-way pots.

I kind of disagree because I'll cbet this 3 way and expect around ~50% folds
and if utg checks, I expect BU to bet

You'll also raise a wider range than you'll 3-bet. Leading out will get all the money in more often than a c/r.

Leading out will get all the money in more often than a c/r.

Agreed. If they have a hand worth anything, they'll come along.

Stop check/raising your best hands in 3-way pots.

I kind of disagree because I'll cbet this 3 way and expect around ~50% folds
and if utg checks, I expect BU to bet

You'll also raise a wider range than you'll 3-bet. Leading out will get all the money in more often than a c/r.

I counter that with saying that you get more random money from air by c/ring here because button will fire to take it down when the original raiser gave up

[Nobody~~]

Sounds like just that sort of talk that is being talked about in SHNL thread. Mediocre decisions that translate to little difference in EV.

[surviva316]

I definitely bet this flop. I fire a 1/2 psb on the turn and think long and hard whether I shove or fold the turn to a raise.

if we lead turn and get raised we are NOT at all in a shove or fold situation. i feel like understanding why this is the case is kinda important, so i'll leave it to you to think about why this is. (huge hint: how does shoving manipulate his range, and how do the advantages and the disadvantages compare to when we have somehting like AdQd).

as far as the discussion of whether or not to lead the flop, OP should not just dismiss this as an instance of marginal EV that isn't worth discussing that Griffey talked about in the SHNL (which i think is what you were referencing). if (and that's a big if) there's a small difference in EV between leading out and c/r'ing it is because the plethora of factors involved in this hand just happen to balance each other out. it's actually a VERY interesting spot (esp. for the BC) because it involves a lot of consideration of villains' cbetting range, maximizing value based on opponent reads, manipulating ranges, protecting strong hands on wet flops, merging ranges for when we donk into the preflop raiser and maximizing EV for our whole range.

i personally think we're trying to maximize value against draws/KJ/AK and leading out is the best way to get value from all 3 of those hands (c/r makes all but KJ consider folding and makes it the least likely to get AK's stack, imo). also, showing villains that we're capable of donking with a set adds oober FE to when we donk with draws and such in future hands on similar boards