Cash games AND SnG's?

[JoeHaw]

Alright, so I'm really interested w/ poker, have been my whole life.

I've read the HOHs (not the cash game ones yet), ToP Read 'em and Reap, NLH Theory and Practice- and tons of online articles, I'd like to think I'm pretty well educated in poker, at least enough so to make a dent in the low stakes.

So anyways, I made my account on PStars about a week ago, got Hold'em Manager and PokerStove, deposited 50 dollars w the bonus code, and figured it would be a walk in the park.

Anyways, I realized playing 2NL FR cash games until I hit 125 dollars in my bankroll to move up to 5NL was going to take quite some time, so I figured I would take a stab at the 1+.20 27 player SnGs and some MTTs.

Anyways, I've since lost 12 dollars in SnGs and MTTs and only made about 5 dollars over 2000 hands in cash games to leave me about 7 dollars in the hole after the first week, far from where I though I would be. I'd love to think this is just some negative variance (6.3% flopped set? c'mon), but I'm afraid maybe I'm not quite so good as I though I would be. Anyways, I'm always looking to learn, and will continue to post here and read outside resources, but I was wondering if can even be at all normal to play 12 SnGs and only get itm for 2 of them.

Would you reccomend I just grind the 2NL until $125 and wait until I can buy SnGwiz to play the SnGs and MTTs, or if I'm confident in my abilities as a tourney player, can I continue to play the tournaments? Does it require a larger bankroll to play sngs or MTTs? Are MTTs w no rebuys or add ons even worth my time?

Do any of you guys frequently play both SnGs and Cash Games, or do you generally just stick to one?

Thanks for getting me off on the right foot here, I've realized its not going to be the fairy tale I imagined haha.

JoeHaw

[Airles™]

Rule number one for new players: you're never as good as you think you are.

Rule number one for experienced players: you're never as good as you think you are.

But seriously, this is a small sample but you have HEM right? Post some stats and we can tell you if you're playing well and losing or just playing poorly. There's no such thing as variance long-term, at least IMO.

[mbiz]

ive been going consistently good in 2nl lately but probably not over a big enough sample to say this with much confidence.. but make what you will of it

When i go into a 2nl game i tell myself 'dont play poker, play 2NL'.
At these stakes (in full ring) its essentially about waiting for good cards, only continuing if you hit a good flop. Cbetting with air can work, but its mostly nut camping. play very tight.
Occasionally you'll find yourself in a more pokerish situation where you want to make set plays to extract the most out of someone, and there are also lots of times where questionable calls come into play. But some good rules i got from ftr are bet good fold bad, and big hand big pot little hand little pot.

again im a noob but this is working well for me.

also, an incredibly effective way ive found to counter my tendency to play too many hands is to multitable 3 tables so that good hands come round more often.

so keep all your good poker theory in mind, but play a bit nitty for the time being, no fancy plays. theres some good guides on microstakes in ftr i think, aimed at complete beginner (starting hands and whatnot) - use them, dont let pride get in the way of $$$!

[Bradley]

Hey Joe, fellow beginner :P

From what I've noticed, it's best to stick to just one game especially when you're fairly new.
I see you've read a lot of information but remember, practise makes perfect. You now have to learn to apply the knowledge that you've gained throughout reading those books etc, and that takes some time.
Start off at either 2 or 5NL full ring cash games(depending on your BR) play tight ABC poker and don't make many fancy plays.
2K hands and up 5$? That's more than 1 buy-in per 1k hands, not that bad, be patient.
I've played a lot of sng's in the past and I personally enjoy them more than cash games, hence why after playing 10k hands at 5NL I decided to stick to turbo SnG's. I've noticed that if you stick to one kind of game you improve way faster(ripping up 6.50$ sngs atm), but if I go cash gaming now, I suck.

Moral of my story: play the game you enjoy most and focus on that, you WILL see improvements if you are dedicated(which sounds to me you are)

well if you switch to SNGs now you probably will never be good at cash
but if you keep playing cash you can always move on to SNGs and MTTs later

[van.dog]

key to cash games at 2nl is table selection. once you get a database of players you'll start seeing some multi-tablers that seek out tables with fish. try and get to the fish before they take all their money.... if you are at a table and everyone is 9/4/1 its time to move on

[Kijjo]

what mbiz wrote about 2NL is spot on. good cards, good flop = win. bluffing = losing to bottom pair because the fish isn't folding!
Personally what iopq said is crap (sorry iopq, just my opinion).
I started with SNG's and while I find them more fun, your upward movement in profit and bankroll will be much better in cash games. If you really love the tourneys and you're playing for fun, that's cool, just realize you're not going to be able to move up a stake every month or two on a continual basis.

[bjsaust]

Pick the one you enjoy most and stick with it. You dont need SNGWiz to be good at STTs. I'd probably avoid MTTs until you're slightly bigger rolled just because of the fact you can need to play a lot to get the few wins you need to push things along.

12 games is a ridiculously small sample to know if you can win STTs.

[amir is cool]

its personal preference but it is generally accepted that a cash player is inherently more skilled than a tournament player, due to the amount of post flop play required in a cash game, as compared to a tournament where it's just preflop/flop.

thanks to programs like sngwiz and shit sngs are a solved game. theres not a whole lot of money to be made there because every fish with sngwiz knows how to play the shove/fold game.


read this.
http://www.totalgambler.com/pokertip...ine_poker.html

cash for dough, tourneys for show.

Personally what iopq said is crap (sorry iopq, just my opinion).

no ur crap

[bjsaust]

There are not many pro SNG grinders at the $1 level...

[Stacks]

Hmm... We make money when villain's make mistakes. Doesn't matter if they are making a mistake at 5/10 cash, or $1 SNGs. When they make a mistake we profit. Well, I'm pretty sure that villain's make mistakes everywhere. So as long as we make fewer mistakes than the villains we play against, we profit. Guess what? I'm pretty sure that with study, you can make fewer mistakes at cash games, SNGs, and MTTs. So you see... It doesn't really matter which you choose. Just play better than your opponents, and over the long run, you will profit.

Hmm... We make money when villain's make mistakes. Doesn't matter if they are making a mistake at 5/10 cash, or $1 SNGs. When they make a mistake we profit. Well, I'm pretty sure that villain's make mistakes everywhere. So as long as we make fewer mistakes than the villains we play against, we profit. Guess what? I'm pretty sure that with study, you can make fewer mistakes at cash games, SNGs, and MTTs. So you see... It doesn't really matter which you choose. Just play better than your opponents, and over the long run, you will profit.

if you want to learn to play deep, you should start out playing deep because playing deep is more difficult than playing short

[bjsaust]

So you think the best way to start off building a roll is to play what in your mind is the most difficult game?

[surviva316]

i'm with iopq. technically there is more to know in tourneys because there is more potential situations including (potentially) just about every single situation that happens in a cash game (potentially). also translation from chips to EV is something you never have to deal with in cash games.

BUT, all those cash situations (100bb deep, against players who are pesky yet solid postflop) just about never happen in tourneys and they're the toughest situations that take all these books and crap to learn what the hell to do and how the hell we put people on ranges. tourney hands are generally done by the turn.

easier to go from a solid cash game player and learn how to get an edge over opponents in the same steady situations you find yourself in over and over again, then figuring out ICM and stuff and moving into the more multifarious yet straightforward calculations that are involved in tourney play

[Monsieur_chat]

key to cash games at 2nl is table selection. once you get a database of players you'll start seeing some multi-tablers that seek out tables with fish. try and get to the fish before they take all their money.... if you are at a table and everyone is 9/4/1 its time to move on

Yeah man try to avoid those shark infested 2nl tables.

I was sure the standard response here used to be read the beginner's digest and play whichever you prefer at the lowest stakes available. We're overcomplicating things.

So FWIW I'd suggest you:
- Play 2nl
- Read the beginner's digest
- Go to a table
- Get TPTK
- Locate the bet button.

So you think the best way to start off building a roll is to play what in your mind is the most difficult game?

building a roll != learning poker

[WillburForce]

key to cash games at 2nl is table selection. once you get a database of players you'll start seeing some multi-tablers that seek out tables with fish. try and get to the fish before they take all their money.... if you are at a table and everyone is 9/4/1 its time to move on

Yeah man try to avoid those shark infested 2nl tables.

I was sure the standard response here used to be read the beginner's digest and play whichever you prefer at the lowest stakes available. We're overcomplicating things.

So FWIW I'd suggest you:
- Play 2nl
- Read the beginner's digest
- Go to a table
- Get TPTK
- Locate the bet button.

yep read all the beginners stuff , fire up 2 x tables of $2nl and play nothoing but good hands. no fancy play. post some hands on here. EZ game.

[Stacks]

Hmm... We make money when villain's make mistakes. Doesn't matter if they are making a mistake at 5/10 cash, or $1 SNGs. When they make a mistake we profit. Well, I'm pretty sure that villain's make mistakes everywhere. So as long as we make fewer mistakes than the villains we play against, we profit. Guess what? I'm pretty sure that with study, you can make fewer mistakes at cash games, SNGs, and MTTs. So you see... It doesn't really matter which you choose. Just play better than your opponents, and over the long run, you will profit.

if you want to learn to play deep, you should start out playing deep because playing deep is more difficult than playing short

This is just stupid. So is saying that if you start out playing SNGs, you will probably never be good at cash games. You have to learn to play whatever game you choose, which will take study/experience. Playing short is different than playing deep, just as playing SNGs is different than playing cash games. I agree that if you are used to playing short that you likely aren't going to be all that great at playing deep, until you study and play deep that is. But it works the other way around also.

So seriously OP, choose whichever you want and then study that game. Don't play cash just because people say to, even if you despise it. You can still play SNGs and be profitable. If you choose cash games, don't buyin full if you wish to play short just because people say they hate shortstackers. Being a shortstacker can be pretty profitable, and if that's what you want to do, then do it.

[sarbox68]

Would you reccomend I just grind the 2NL until I get good enough and therefore a big enough bankroll to move to 5NL

FYP

Or if you'd rather play SNGs then rinse and repeat in that direction. Either way pick the type of game (SNG or cash... the MTT's are a bitch at the beginning 'cause of the high variance to your roll...) and focus all your attention on getting good at that. The idea that there's a magical "haz to do this first" is retarded IMHO. But so is bouncing around between the two like an ADD fruit fly on crack...

Pick 1
Learn good
Play well
Make $$$

EZ game....

(oh... and SNGWIZ is great and all, but it's not a placebo for instapokerriches. There's a ton you can learn and work on before spending a dime on something like that, and my vote would be to pick up HEM or PT3 as a learning tool long before you went for the WIZ....)

I agree that if you are used to playing short that you likely aren't going to be all that great at playing deep, until you study and play deep that is. But it works the other way around also.

Here's where I disagree: playing short is easy for someone who knows how to play deep-stacked. If you can use proper bet sizing on three streets of poker, you can use proper bet sizing on one or two. If you can plan your hand around commitment (or lack of it), you can do that 20BB deep or 100BB deep.

But the most difficult decisions in deep stacked NLHE games come at the turn and river. You simply don't play the turn and river 20BB deep unless it's just jamming the rest of your stack in because there was some money left after the flop. If you don't learn how to play later streets, you're basically starting at zero when you try to learn cash as a tourney player.

I know because I switched from 50NL cash to $50 SNGs and had no trouble adjusting. But lots of SNG or MTT players don't have much confidence in their NL cash games. Some of the people I talked to on FTR vent tried cash and felt uncomfortable playing deep. That is why, using personal experience I have to say it's easier to learn to play deep first.

[Jack Sawyer]

crawl, walk, run, then fly.

playing sng's first is immensely beneficial to the beginning player in the following ways:

1) you learn the preflop game
2) you can only lose your buyin (which with the ease of reloading at cash can get complicated very quickly)
3) you will learn discipline and patience
4) you get a sense of accomplishment for your win.
5) basically, punishment for fail can not get as out of hand as with cash.


Plus, once you are done with SNG's you can always start dabbling into cash games at will. Contrary to popular belief, "adjusting" from shallow stack poker to 100bb+ poker is not hard at all. Since, well, you know, it is still poker.

Plus, most of the "top" players in this ruthless meritocracy called poker started out by grinding SNG. Yes, that includes Durrrr.

It is up to you to choose whichever one you feel more comfortable with and give it a go. When starting out though, do not mix them up. Try to concentrate either on cash or tourneys. As you gain more experience you will hopefully understand why.

[bjsaust]

fwiw I started with SNGs and switched to cash. DaGoat did also. I'm sure lots of others have. Sure theres an adjustment, but nothing says you cant be reading cash strategy while you play SNGs.

[Stacks]

SNG -> Cash game player here.

[JoeHaw]

Alright you guys, I really appreciate all the input.
Ive decided to stick to cash games until I hit 5NL, and than maybe take a stab at some STT, I'm staying away from the MTTs until my BR is strong and I'm more confident in my game.

SNG -> Cash game player here.

See, I told you SNG players suck :P :P :P :P :P :P