Thoughts on Leaving when 200bb+?

[Micro2Macro]

What's everyones thoughts on leaving a table after doubling through vs staying around and looking to grow a massive stack? I assume it would be based on bankroll management and risk tolerance etc. etc. But to avoid losing 200bb's which is a buy in at the next level, would we rather leave in this situation as opposed to stay after developing a good image + reads etc.


(Edited to move the discussion in the intended direction)

[xX zorrito Xx]

once I have 10% of my roll in a table I leave... so playing 10nl I leave like at around 30-35 bucks...

a lot of players coming to the table automatically assume you're a maniac because you have a stack and will keep trying to double up from you...

[Micro2Macro]

Cool thanks for the repsonse.

I play overrolled. It's a choice I've made based on a number of things and I feel it works best for me and my game..having that extra cushion keeps me from being so worried about my PT graph because my buy ins are such a small fraction of my roll. I may be criticized for playing overrolled but I feel more comfortable than being tight rolled.

I suppose I can handle the swings of losing 200bb then as long as it doens't dent my roll.

[RML604]

If the table is good, I'll stick around. But building a huge stack in a cash game doesn't do much except possibly intimidate other huge stacks. But if you're going up against someone with 100BB, they shouldn't view you any different than anyone else who has equal or larger stacks than them. So it just depends on the table.

If I have 200BB and the person to my immediate left also has 200BB, i'll leave. But I'm more likely to stick around if he's on my right. So like everything in poker, it's situational.

[daven]

playing deep is a little different to playing 100bb deep. Make sure you recognise the differences. Remember that you are only 200bb deep against others with 200+bb stacks - against a 100bb player your effective stack size is 100bb. If you don't feel comfortable stacking off as marginal favourite this deep, then leave. I start to get uncomfortable around 250bb deep when covered by good players or maniacs, reasonably good players I don't mind.

[bigspenda73]

a lot of players coming to the table automatically assume you're a maniac because you have a stack and will keep trying to double up from you...

I'd love to have this image if I was a nit/tagg

[kb coolman]

I hate stacking off with a 200BB effective stack unless I have the monsta nuts. With 100BB effective stacks I've found it's a lot easier to take advantage of the villians who are looking to double up against you.

And like RML said, it's situational.

And don't let it bug you if someone calls you a BR nit for being overrolled. BR management is all about helping you play your best. There are some good guidlines that should be obeyed, but there is no 'one size fits all' rule.

[Micro2Macro]

I was a huge favourite, lol. But I see what you mean. Pushing slim edges with a deepstack probably isn't worth it much since the amount of hands needed to cover the variance most likely wouldn't be nearly reached before one moves up to the next level.

[Webb87]

Anyone ever experience this before right after doubling up?

Maybe this will make you feel better!

Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 3: Marcusa110 ( $125.65 USD )
Seat 4: Hero ( $113.75 USD )
Seat 2: MythraHan ( $60.21 USD )
Seat 5: milchtaxiiii ( $60.76 USD )
Seat 6: AvinashZ ( $20 USD )
Seat 1: bradnerrich ( $30 USD )
milchtaxiiii posts small blind [$0.25 USD].
AvinashZ posts big blind [$0.50 USD].
bradnerrich posts big blind [$0.50 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ah Ad ]
bradnerrich checks
MythraHan folds
Marcusa110 raises [$2.25 USD]
Hero raises [$7 USD]
milchtaxiiii folds
AvinashZ folds
bradnerrich calls [$6.50 USD]
Marcusa110 raises [$9.50 USD]
Hero is all-In [$106.75 USD]
bradnerrich folds
Marcusa110 calls [$102 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7d, 8c, 8h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jc ]
** Dealing River ** [ 5c ]
Marcusa110 shows [ Jh, Jd ]a full house, Jacks full of Eights.
Hero doesn't show [ Ah, Ad ]two pairs, Aces and Eights.
Marcusa110 wins $232.25 USD from the main pot with a full house, Jacks full of Eights.

This happened to me at 50NL a long time ago and still to this day pops up in my head whenever I think of bad beats. I probably should just forget about it and not post it but since your situation was so similar I thought I'd share.
Don't let it get you down, like the others have said it's situational. I always feel comfortable playing deep if I have the position, you just have to know that shit isn't always going to work out and shrug it off.

[Jason]

I also don't like to have 10% of my roll on the table, but how I deal with it when it gets to that point has more to do with table selection than "protecting a win". "Protecting a win" is a bad, tilting mindset to get into and cashing out is not the right way to deal with it in my opinion. You start to play differently is you stay OR you leave altogether and take away the opportunity to take others' stacks and keep doing the things that got you that large stack to begin with. No matter how large your stack, you should ALWAYS be aware of your stack size and all villains' stack sizes and play accordingly.

I typically only play 2 to 3 tables, so if my bankroll in play gets into the 10% range, based on table selection not how much money I have @ any particular table, I look to either close a table or leave a table and join a new one. If you are at a juicy table with weak or predictable players who will pay you off, I would sooner close out two other bad to average tables and JUST play that one great table.

On the subject of bankroll management, I've always believed if you're going to make an error, it's MUCH better to do it more to the side of being over rolled than under rolled.

[Micro2Macro]

LOL Webb this is a flashback of what happened. I'm able to just shrug it though because I play overrolled. If I was on a tight-roll I'd probably flip that I lose 2BI in 3 seconds, but having a shit load of BI's is pretty sweet in situations like this because you can afford to lose em knowing the chips went in while ahead.

Being a BR nit sure has its advantages, it frees my mind of any second guessing I might come across at the tables. It never even occurred to me if I should leave right after I doubled until after I got stacked. It helps me just play poker and forget about the money, win rates, etc. that just clog up the brain when trying to focus on the current task.

[Ragnar4]

All in preflop, lost holding AA vs JJ.

Net -200+ bb's.

Anyone ever experience this before right after doubling up? Does anyone here leave a table after doubling up to protect their winnings? This single hand dropped my win rate by almost 2BB's lol.

What's everyones thoughts on leaving a table after doubling through vs staying around and looking to grow a massive stack? I assume it would be based on bankroll management and risk tolerance etc. etc. But to avoid losing 200bb's which is a buy in at the next level, would we rather leave in this situation as opposed to stay after developing a good image + reads etc.

Oh and god bless the man who thought his JJ was good 200+ bb's deep all in preflop. People like you keep the games going, and I thank you for that.

WAAAAY Too results oriented.

I would bet everything I had in front of me on 2 aces every time I got the opportunity if I Thought my opponent would commit his stack

This is why we play with proper bankrolls, so that we never ever even consider this when we lose as a 5-1 fave.

You got 200 bb's with the nuts, as a 5-1 fave, so 20% of the time you lose all 200 bb's, and 80% of the time you win 200bbs.
(200 * .8) means that you win 160 BB's every time all the money goes in the pot.

Be certain to learn from the situations you are in, but don't be like the cat who takes too much from a learning experience. A cat who sits on a hot lid won't sit on a hot lid ever again, but he also won't sit on a cold one.

[Micro2Macro]

Did you read the entire thread? You just stated the obvious...we know I'm an 80% fav the question isn't a matter of whether the play was correct. The topic was brought up to initiate discussion not just regarding 80/20 situations, but deepstack situations in general. The fact that this is the first time I've been stacked for 200bb's made me curious how others handle it once they double through. (i.e. get up and start fresh at 100bb or keep grinding).
Obviously I didn't think twice about putting the money in.

[Sir Pawnalot]

People who respond without reading the whole thread annoys me too.
But with AA i would push all day long, even with 200 BB...

In the past I "manufactured" a winning streak. I would play until I was a little bit up. Then toke some and review my hands, read poker strategy etc. I would do that everyday, without ever having a downswing. It went a year before I had my first downswing.

What I said above is stupid advice, but it really helps on your confidence. Losing 200BB in one hand is not a big deal- but what happens to your game "after" that hand? If you can continue playing your A+ game, it is fine.

If you are playing on the juiciest of the juiciest tables I would stay, if not I would gladly leave. The reason that I would leave is that my deep stack skills are lacking and that is an important consideration.

We amateurs have a lot of luxury in that we do not need to play 4 hours + every day. However- if it is a reg on the table I will play a couple of orbits...no way I am conveying that I am afraid to gamble 200BB!

[Silly String]

What matter to me is the quality of players at that table that are as deep as I am. If I think I am outclassed playing 200BB deep by the other players, I get up all the time. I also get up if I just stacked the only fish at a table full of regs and he doesn't reload or leaves. No point paying rake to grind each other to death.

[GatorJH]

If you're scared, just say you're scared.

[Micro2Macro]

I'm playing overrolled with money that is meaningless to me.

[bigspenda73]

I always assess my table when I get to 200bb deep, some questions to ask yourself

1. are other players 200bb deep as well
--if no, then there is absolutely no reason to leave
2. was the player I stacked the reason for being at the table in the first place
-if yes, and he left, it could be time to leave
3. if someone else has 200+bbs, does he have position on me
-if yes, it could be time to leave
4. do I have an edge/better skill than the other players sitting with 200+bbs
-if no, sounds like it's time to leave

[GatorJH]

I'm playing overrolled with money that is meaningless to me.

Can I have some then please? Kaythx.

[Micro2Macro]

I'm playing overrolled with money that is meaningless to me.

Can I have some then please? Kaythx.

LOL, there is nothing I can do to dig myself out of this mess of replies now. Let me just flip open my check book.......; )

[Micro2Macro]

I always assess my table when I get to 200bb deep, some questions to ask yourself

1. are other players 200bb deep as well
--if no, then there is absolutely no reason to leave
2. was the player I stacked the reason for being at the table in the first place
-if yes, and he left, it could be time to leave
3. if someone else has 200+bbs, does he have position on me
-if yes, it could be time to leave
4. do I have an edge/better skill than the other players sitting with 200+bbs
-if no, sounds like it's time to leave

Now this is quality postage. I'll definately keep these things in mind when playing deep. Thanks Spenda.

[Sir Pawnalot]

I have never played more than a couple of hours on one table. It would be cool to play one table for 10 hours once and sitting with 1K BB!

Have anyone tried a Marathon session with friends? Playing one table for a month or more, relay style? Imagine having 30K BB in your stack...

[bjsaust]

Spenda beat me to it. I'm reading Elements of Poker right now, and it covers exactly this concept with basically the same conclusions.

I was a huge favourite, lol. But I see what you mean. Pushing slim edges with a deepstack probably isn't worth it much since the amount of hands needed to cover the variance most likely wouldn't be nearly reached before one moves up to the next level.

If you don't push those slim edges that's how you'll get that variance you keep complaining about

[bjsaust]

If you feel you only have a slim edge with 200bbs effective I'd probably just leave. If you had at least one villain you felt you were much better than I'd stay.

I guess another way to look at it, find a reason to stay and if you cant, just go.

[Micro2Macro]

I was a huge favourite, lol. But I see what you mean. Pushing slim edges with a deepstack probably isn't worth it much since the amount of hands needed to cover the variance most likely wouldn't be nearly reached before one moves up to the next level.

If you don't push those slim edges that's how you'll get that variance you keep complaining about

Are you willing to stack off 200bb+ on a 53/47 or so edge immediately after doubling up on a table after the fish you busted just left and your left oop against a reg and your still not 100% confident about his range? Or would you rather pass, leave the table and start fresh at 100bb's?

[bigspenda73]

haha owned b/c I haven't read elements of poker

suck on that Angelo

side note- listened to Angelo on a 2+2 pokercast once and he was really effing cool.

[Micro2Macro]

Spenda you should write a book.

[Jason]

Are you willing to stack off 200bb+ on a 53/47 or so edge immediately after doubling up on a table after the fish you busted just left and your left oop against a reg and your still not 100% confident about his range? Or would you rather pass, leave the table and start fresh at 100bb's?

The crux of the problem is you seem to be taking the point of view of protecting a win. The point of no limit in my opinion is to have a big stack to have everyone covered and take their stack. You're looking to win a lot of small pots or the occasional huge pot. It's why most good players buy in for the full amount and not a short stack. And good players are going to use that big stack to their advantage so that other players @ the table are more apt to fear them - NOT the other way around.

If there is another player @ the table with a stack as deep as yours like 200BB for example and you have an edge, I think it's wrong to think "I just doubled up and I don't want to lose what I just won". You have to think "I'm in a position to push my stack to 400BB and run these chumps over" . I recently lost a regular 100BB stack getting all the money in after the flop. I was behind in the hand, but a 52% chance favorite. I didn't catch one of my 15 outs :/ but I didn't care because I was the favorite and also had some fold equity because I pushed and he/she called. I would have made that same play 200BB deep or whatever.

The goal is to make good decisions and the fact that you just doubled up or fear losing winnings shouldn't enter into the decision making process.

[Knytestorme]

I was in this situation last night with being at 400bb on one (deep) table, 200bb on another and use the following rules to determine when to stay or leave.

1. Is there at least one other player with close to my stack at the table - Stay since we have another opportunity to double up at some stage and can pick and choose our spots
2. Are there at least 3 short stackers - Leave, we will likely start leaking money as we continue to play our usual game and have to fold to too many shoves by the shorties
3. Have started leaking chips slowly to one player on the table - Leave, they are likely outplaying us and we mostly won't get their stack when we're ahead.

The number of BI's I'm up at a table doesn't ever really enter into when I want to leave or not as even if I get toally stacked at some stage when 200bb+ I'm only losing 1BI and not 2 and we sat at the table willing to lose at least 1BI so what has changed.

It all comes down to how secure we feel in our ability to play with a big stack and not get ourselves into silly situation where we're lost in the hand. The time to leave a table with a big stack is the moment you start wondering if you should leave because if you stay after that point you'll be second guessing your every move and that WILL limit your growth as a player and wilingness to push edges.

If you play on a decent site there will always be enough tables that leaving one won't impact on your ability to resit...just don't get a rep as a rat-holer, wether you short stack or not.

[Sir Pawnalot]

I agree to all that have been said, but we are making one big assumption- namely that our goal is to make as much money as possible.

For some players, like myself, winning is not the absolute goal. Enjoyment and mental stimuli are my two biggest goals.

If it is 2.am in the morning there is no way i am risking 200BB with an 53/47 edge (unless i KNOW it is a 53/47 edge). Because the utility of winning 200BB is lesser for me than the utility of getting a good sleep.

We all have different reasons for playing poker. When we understand our own reasons we can make better decisions in poker- and in life.

[will641]

if you aren't comfortable playing 200bb deep then leave. there are way too many good tables running at micro stakes for you to do something you aren't comfortable with.

[kb coolman]

if you aren't comfortable playing 200bb deep then leave. there are way too many good tables running at micro stakes for you to do something you aren't comfortable with.

This

/thread

[Outlaw]

I love playing when really deep.. I feel it intimidates the good players and makes the bad ones take shots at me.

Today (10NL) I was up to $35 on one table.. short stacks kept coming onto the table and stacking off against me with bottom pair.. before I knew it I was at $56. I had never been that deep before at 10NL and gotta admit it was fun.. the next biggest stack was $15 the whole time I was there and I found I was getting mega respect from the solid players and absolutely none from the maniacs. I left the table once I hit $100. I may never again get 35% of my roll on one table at once, so I savored it.