First big hit :(

[AFchung]

Here's my first big hit. I have a few questions besides the good ol' "did i play this right"

1. if i'm winning at a table, at what point should i quit? i heard somewhere that it's a good idea to leave around 3 buyins deep.

Anyways, here's the hand. My opponent was something like 13/8/5. Can someone explain what the 5 means?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($2)
MP3 ($5.15)
CO ($4.42)
Button ($2.69)
SB ($2.80)
BB ($1.98)
UTG ($10.08)
UTG+1 ($0.99)
Hero ($2.91)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q, Q.
UTG raises to $0.1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.3, 2 folds, CO calls $0.30, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.20.

Flop: ($0.93) 7, 4, 5 (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.75, CO calls $0.75, UTG raises to $4.2, Hero calls $1.86 (All-In), CO calls $3.37 (All-In).

Turn: ($11.86) 2 (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($11.86) 4 (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $11.78

Results in white below:
UTG has 7s 7d (full house, sevens full of fours).
Hero has Qc Qs (two pair, queens and fours).
CO doesn't show.
Outcome: UTG wins $11.85.

[ponyboy]

Don't go broke with 1 pair.

UTG raising that strong unless you have a read generally means he hit trips, especially since he was the first one to raise preflop. You have to watch out for that when there is an initial raiser behind you who just calls your reraise.

Learn from it and move on.

[xptboy]

you played it fine, you just got unlucky, he shouldn't be calling your 3bet with 77

he was fortunate to hit his set, but be wary of that board, against bad players that board is very dangerous for your overpair

[ponyboy]

you played it fine, you just got unlucky, he shouldn't be calling your 3bet with 77

he was fortunate to hit his set, but be wary of that board, against bad players that board is very dangerous for your overpair

Caller only had to invest another .20 to win a potential .75 pot, which are decent odds with middle pair to call. I would call that 3bet with 77 hoping to hit just like he did and win a huge pot - just like he did. If you don't hit, fold.

[TheScientist23]

It low stakes like this, if someone check-raises the flop, they hit something usually

[xptboy]

It's true that when he checkraised you, you should've thought "hmm... he hit the board hard or he's bluffing..."

Raise moe preflop to take away his odds

[Dude_Here]

Can someone explain what the 5 means?

The 5 should be his total aggression factor. The aggression factor is defined as (Bet % + Raise %) / Call %. The higher the value, the more aggressive the player
So this guy bets and raises 5 times as much as he calls.

[a500lbgorilla]

Hi,

What did you think of the check/raiser?

[JKDS]

someone do pokerstove. his range is all pocket pairs 44+ but not KK or AA cuz i doubt they or overcards do this.

[lean86]

Consider he put 100 chips and you just raised it to 300, making it more 200 for him to call, and it's an easy easy call pre-flop with 7-7. And he hit his trips on the flop. Trips are kind of a hard thing to detect/avoid when the guy has a pocket pair but at low stakes like these anything is possible, even a straight on the flop.

[spoonitnow]

It's played fine.

Your SPR is < 3 so you have to stack off here. It's just part of the game.

[Stacks]

spoon....SPR?

[spoonitnow]

spoon....SPR?

Stack to Pot Ratio. It's a measure of the remaining stacks on the flop divided by the pot on the flop and is a good indicator of when you should be committed in certain kinds of spots.

[oskar]

This is also a board where someone might easily semi-bluff with a flush draw or straight draw with a pair... you don't want to see an Ah6h necessarily but all-in-all you have to call. All kinds of overpairs could reraise here. Up to 25NL I do stack off with one overpair rather easily, and that is far from being the biggest leak in my game. With a 4$ stack I would think twice, but as cheap as it is.

[badgers]

Don't go broke with 1 pair.

No offence but this is absolutely terrible advice

[Outlaw]

I guess his range is 22+, AQs+, not including AA, KK

There are only 3 hands in his range you are beat by.. that he might shove with. He might shove AKh, AQh, 88, 99, 1010, JJ, QQ.. I doubt AA, KK, Ajs, A10s are in his range but I've seen players with those stats play those cards when 3-betted.

I think his shove was a good play, since he knew you at least might be pot committed. You were okay in stacking off.. just remember, sometimes in poker everyone can play a hand right but someone usually has to still lose. Just keep in mind that if you win in this situation 51% of the time you come out ahead in the end. (well without rake anyways)

[Stacks]

Don't go broke with 1 pair.

No offence but this is absolutely terrible advice

Yeah I seem to be hearing this alot too. Players saying they won't felt without at least 2pr +. This isn't how it works. It depends on alot of things. Your hand, their range, board texture, etc. While I agree there are obviously times when going broke with 1 pair isn't a good idea, there are also times I'm more than happy to get it all in with 1 pair (ldo).

Bad time: You raise with 66 UTG and get 3 calls and the flop is AKQ. Yeah don't go broke here.

Good time: Anytime I have AA preflop.

[ponyboy]

Don't go broke with 1 pair.

No offence but this is absolutely terrible advice

It's only terrible advice to you as an experienced player.

New players (like myself) need to learn to read a board, read a player and take a look at betting patterns before commiting to a huge pot, even at microstakes. It's learning the proper fundamentals before you branch out and try different things to see what makes you comfortable.

To all of us, it was easy to see the potential for a set here - our poster did not. Too many new players have an overpair to the board and lose stacks all the time without thinking about what their opponent might have. I'm just trying to give him something to consider the next time this scenario comes up.

[spoonitnow]

Don't go broke with 1 pair.

No offence but this is absolutely terrible advice

It's only terrible advice to you as an experienced player.

New players (like myself) need to learn to read a board, read a player and take a look at betting patterns before commiting to a huge pot, even at microstakes. It's learning the proper fundamentals before you branch out and try different things to see what makes you comfortable.

To all of us, it was easy to see the potential for a set here - our poster did not. Too many new players have an overpair to the board and lose stacks all the time without thinking about what their opponent might have. I'm just trying to give him something to consider the next time this scenario comes up.

No, it's terrible advice period, and there's no excuse for such a blanket statement.

[ponyboy]

Don't go broke with 1 pair.

No offence but this is absolutely terrible advice

It's only terrible advice to you as an experienced player.

New players (like myself) need to learn to read a board, read a player and take a look at betting patterns before commiting to a huge pot, even at microstakes. It's learning the proper fundamentals before you branch out and try different things to see what makes you comfortable.

To all of us, it was easy to see the potential for a set here - our poster did not. Too many new players have an overpair to the board and lose stacks all the time without thinking about what their opponent might have. I'm just trying to give him something to consider the next time this scenario comes up.

No, it's terrible advice period, and there's no excuse for such a blanket statement.

I'm trying to show the OP that it happens and the reasons why, not just jump down someone's throat for making a simple observation.

You guys could explain why instead of just telling me it's terrible advice because nobody seems to be able to do that yet. New players overvalue overpairs all of the time without reading betting or the board, they just get all excited that they have a strong overpair and get stacked.

[AFchung]

can someone correct me on my definition of a 3 bet:

Player1 raises. Player2 re-raises. Player3 re-re-raises?

who 3 bet here?

[Stacks]

You guys could explain why instead of just telling me it's terrible advice because nobody seems to be able to do that yet.

I'll take a quick stab here, probably at the expense of being corrected also.

The reason your advise here is incorrect is because everything in poker is situational dependent. There are times when you don't want to go broke with 1 pair (or an overpair) and there are times when you are fairly thrilled to stack off in that situation. The player, their range, the board texture, everything plays as factors in determining this. For instance, take this hand and instead of having a TAGG opponent, have the villian be something like 60/20/5. Even against such a strong c/r line on the flop, I'm not gonna hate myself stacking off with an overpair against a villian such as that.

So instead of telling the OP that he "shouldn't go broke with 1 pair", tell him to consider all of the factors. Tell him this line taken by that particular villian narrows down a rather strong range, that we aren't in great shape against. But don't make it sound as if making sure you have more than 1 pair before felting is a requirement (whether you meant it as a general rule or for just this particular situation, it came off to me at least as the first).

[JKDS]

can someone correct me on my definition of a 3 bet:

Player1 raises. Player2 re-raises. Player3 re-re-raises?

who 3 bet here?

for future questions like these, check the stickies. Player 2 3bet. Its the act of making the second raise, or making a third different bet.

[AFchung]

can someone correct me on my definition of a 3 bet:

Player1 raises. Player2 re-raises. Player3 re-re-raises?

who 3 bet here?

for future questions like these, check the stickies. Player 2 3bet. Its the act of making the second raise, or making a third different bet.

i did check the sticky, but wikipedia had a different definition

[Hawk]

can someone correct me on my definition of a 3 bet:

Player1 raises. Player2 re-raises. Player3 re-re-raises?

who 3 bet here?

for future questions like these, check the stickies. Player 2 3bet. Its the act of making the second raise, or making a third different bet.

i did check the sticky, but wikipedia had a different definition

Preflop the bb counts as the first bet, so the second raise is the 3rd bet.

[JKDS]

hit something or have something. The play makes compelte sense with aa*, kk*, jj, 1010, 99, 88, 77*, 66, A7s, other suited aces that make less sense 55*, and 44*.

all of these can check raise the flop. hell, even A5, A4 i can see doing this thinking you have AK. Normally i wouldnt think his range could be this wide, but this is 2nl here, not 50nl. The difference is huge and while we can be dominated here, i highly doubt it and am shipping this all day long.

[badgers]

Stacks said it pretty much.

It also depends a lot on how deep we are. If we get to a flop with $5 behind and the pot is $2 I'm rarely going to fold a decent pair. If the pot was $0.05 and there is $5 behind, the situation changes and your advice becomes slightly better but there are still times where it is correct to go broke with just one pair, those times are much more rare in the second example.

[ponyboy]

You guys could explain why instead of just telling me it's terrible advice because nobody seems to be able to do that yet.

I'll take a quick stab here, probably at the expense of being corrected also.

The reason your advise here is incorrect is because everything in poker is situational dependent. There are times when you don't want to go broke with 1 pair (or an overpair) and there are times when you are fairly thrilled to stack off in that situation. The player, their range, the board texture, everything plays as factors in determining this. For instance, take this hand and instead of having a TAGG opponent, have the villian be something like 60/20/5. Even against such a strong c/r line on the flop, I'm not gonna hate myself stacking off with an overpair against a villian such as that.

So instead of telling the OP that he "shouldn't go broke with 1 pair", tell him to consider all of the factors. Tell him this line taken by that particular villian narrows down a rather strong range, that we aren't in great shape against. But don't make it sound as if making sure you have more than 1 pair before felting is a requirement (whether you meant it as a general rule or for just this particular situation, it came off to me at least as the first).

I think I said most of this in my second post and I totally agree. The OP had no read except for numbers (which he didn't know what they meant) - and looking at the numbers he did have more experienced players would have known not to felt an overpair. It's all part of the learning curve.

[spoonitnow]

No, it's terrible advice period, and there's no excuse for such a blanket statement.

You guys could explain why instead of just telling me it's terrible advice because nobody seems to be able to do that yet.

IT'S A GODDAMN BLANKET STATEMENT LIKE I JUST SAID.

Would you stack off preflop with AA? You can't, it's only one pair.

[ponyboy]

No, it's terrible advice period, and there's no excuse for such a blanket statement.

You guys could explain why instead of just telling me it's terrible advice because nobody seems to be able to do that yet.

IT'S A GODDAMN BLANKET STATEMENT LIKE I JUST SAID.

Would you stack off preflop with AA? You can't, it's only one pair.

Read the rest of the thread instead of one sentence next time.

Yes, I would stack off preflop with AA. Would you stack off after the flop with AA when the board read KK10 and you faced a hard bet from a loose caller who might have K10, KQ, KJ, 1010, QJ or AK? Probably not. It would depend on the things talked about about a dozen posts ago.

If you would stack off under these circumstances then I'm not the only one giving terrible advice here.

[sil693]

ponyboy your example sucks.

hero would have 2pair for a kick off. and lol at your decision to attack spoonit's advice.

[spoonitnow]

No, it's terrible advice period, and there's no excuse for such a blanket statement.

You guys could explain why instead of just telling me it's terrible advice because nobody seems to be able to do that yet.

IT'S A GODDAMN BLANKET STATEMENT LIKE I JUST SAID.

Would you stack off preflop with AA? You can't, it's only one pair.

Read the rest of the thread instead of one sentence next time.

Yes, I would stack off preflop with AA. Would you stack off after the flop with AA when the board read KK10 and you faced a hard bet from a loose caller who might have K10, KQ, KJ, 1010, QJ or AK? Probably not. It would depend on the things talked about about a dozen posts ago.

If you would stack off under these circumstances then I'm not the only one giving terrible advice here.

Oh my fucking god why don't you just prove my point for me oh wait you just did. In response to the bold, it still depends. And what it depends on entirely is the SPR. It's incredibly irresponsible to post such blanket statements in the beginner's forum.

Now here's a question for you. If you had AA on a board of KKT and villain pushes all-in shows you that he has KK, do you call?

[ponyboy]

So how would you rephrase what I stated?

Don't stack off with an overpair after the flop until you assess the board and have a good read on your opponent?

And frankly, I thought the beginner forum was just that - for beginners to be able to share ideas and advice with veterans. Not get their posts flamed.

Tell me I'm wrong, but tell me why and don't be a prick about it. That seems to be what every other vet is able to do.

[spoonitnow]

So how would you rephrase what I stated?

Don't stack off with an overpair after the flop until you assess the board and have a good read on your opponent?

And frankly, I thought the beginner forum was just that - for beginners to be able to share ideas and advice with veterans. Not get their posts flamed.

Tell me I'm wrong, but tell me why and don't be a prick about it. That seems to be what every other vet is able to do.

I wouldn't rephrase it because I wouldn't have said it in the first place.

In my first post I noticed that you shouldn't make such a blanket statement. That is all. That is all there is to it. There is no more. Nada. None.

In the specific hand given in the OP, I noted that we have too low of an SPR to fold now.

Now that you've got all of that bitch out of your uterus, I will repeat this one more time: you made a blanket statement that was proved inaccurate multiple times by multiple people in this thread, including myself. Your inability to read and think about these responses are not my problem, and you shouldn't vent your poker frustrations out on me because I won't hold your hand through a really basic hand after I've already explained the concepts at work and powder your pussy for you as you work up a sweat thinking about the hand.

[spoonitnow]

I realize that I may have over-reacted in this previous post, but it pisses me off to see players like Stacks work so hard to get better at poker and to see players like ponyboy get pissed off whenever you don't hold their hand through every single detail.

[pgil]

at these stakes, if you are playing them correctly, overpairs should be a goldmine. And by playing them correctly I generally mean betting them hard preflop and not stopping until all of the money is in the middle.

Don't let the couple of times that opponents wake up with hands deter you. overpairs against players who overvalue any pair and any draw are the nuts. treating them differently is throwing money away. as long as your opponent isn't the only other sane player at your table (and even then...) then you should be making money long term felting overpairs.

[aka_red]

hey. is it okay for me to stack off with 9 high?

[chardrian]

I stack off here too.

I also rarely, if ever, get pms.

[sarbox68]

I also rarely, if ever, get pms.

Can someone tell me what this means? I seeing it everywhere so I'm anticipating it's some deep sh!t that's going to take my positionals to a whole new level......

[GatorJH]

I also rarely, if ever, get pms.

Can someone tell me what this means? I seeing it everywhere so I'm anticipating it's some deep sh!t that's going to take my positionals to a whole new level......

Nah, that's just chard being chard.

[sarbox68]

Damn... 'cause my positionals sure could use some elevating....

back to the stickies i guess......

[spoonitnow]

I also rarely, if ever, get pms.

Can someone tell me what this means? I seeing it everywhere so I'm anticipating it's some deep sh!t that's going to take my positionals to a whole new level......

I sent him a PM explaining this btw.