HUDs and their value to beginners

[Unibomber14]

I was perusing the FR forum, when I came across a post by Fnord in reply to a HH.

Against a player with less than 5% PFR, adjustments must be made."

Now, this looks like an obvious post. It's pretty straight forward, and to the point. However, it got me thinking on a topic that I have had some issues with since I started posting here.

When I first came to this site I happened upon the misfortune of seeing a thread in which the FTR regs were telling how much they had made overall in poker. I kept thinking that the levels that these guys were at were unreachable by someone like me. I thought that the only way to get there was to be them. To do only what they did, and use their every word like poker law. So, naturally, when I read a post about PokerTracker, I had to get it. Even though I was already down money, and didn't know what to do with it. Then, I saw a post about PokerEdge. I knew I could take my game to the next level with that. However, even though I had this new tool, I still lost considerably. I didn't get it though. I kept on trying the things that they had suggested in their posts. I tried PAHUD, and I tried seven or so different sites. It never occured to me that the posts I was reading were never actually directed at me. However, it seemed that no matter what I did, I just couldn't win. Like I was destined to give up on poker like every other fad I fell into as a teenager.

Then I did something that I didn't even realize I was doing. I took a long break from the game. Maybe two months or so. Then, when I got back into the game, all the free trials of everything that I was using had run out. I wanted to play a little though, so I opened up a few tables. Man, was it a lot harder to play three or four tables at once without those stats in front of me. I kept timing out when I would get two or three hands at the same time. I wasn't sure what was going on. I kept taking so long to decide the simplest things. So, I went down a table. Eventually, I was playing one table. Just one.

There is more than just a stupid rant in those paragraphs above. See, without knowing it, I had done one of the most important things I could have done for my game. I began to study. I had to realize that there is a difference between playing hands, and gaining experience. I started to pay attention. I started to focus. I started forming ranges, and watching bet sizes, and what stacks were where at the table. I began to understand the reason behind the raise, as opposed to raising because bigspenda73 told me to. I got interested. I started reading books. I started to analyze HHs and post my comments to them. All these things just seemed to be revealed to me at once. It was like I had entered a world where I was no longer the fish. I could be the shark.

So, while this may sound over dramatized (because it is.) I hope that I have gotten your attention for this one statement. Learn the why, and the when will follow. I now play four tables easily without HUD (I plan on using it again when I get back to 25nl), and am able to use PT to a much greater, and more beneficial extent. While I am still not the player I could be, I like what I have done so far. So, whether or not you use these poker tools, make sure you put in the time to study. All the awesome posts that you see on this site came from someone's thoughts while they were studying. Keep your focus, and someone will be envying your bankroll soon enough.

[Miffed22001]

I had to realize that there is a difference between playing hands, and gaining experience.

<3
PAHUD should be banned if you dont play 100nl because it stunts your growth

[XTR1000]

<3
PAHUD should be banned if you dont play 100nl because it stunts your growth

I learned to read hands when PostgreSQL screwed up my old PC and PAHUD stopped working

[daven]

PAHUD should be banned if you dont play 100nl because it stunts your growth

i disagree.
and not just because i'm happy being a dwarf...

[Unibomber14]

I definately think that PAHUD is overrated at the microstakes, but I can't agree that it is useless under 100nl. Once you can be a winning player with a few tables with no stats, then integrate them. Learn how to use them properly with the knowledge you have gained. This way, if you look at the stats and are still unsure, you will have better instincts and experience to rely on.

[Miffed22001]

I definately think that PAHUD is overrated at the microstakes, but I can't agree that it is useless under 100nl. Once you can be a winning player with a few tables with no stats, then integrate them. Learn how to use them properly with the knowledge you have gained. This way, if you look at the stats and are still unsure, you will have better instincts and experience to rely on.

i dont think overrated is the correct response.

I think the problem is that in poker you have to go through a learning curve. HUD takes all that away when you first play the game and continue to do so by watching how players play.

[Unibomber14]

I think overrated is the correct response. I also think that the skills obtained from close observation of the game are underrated. Many microstakes players that have found these poker communities online, and are listening to the regs talk about how some villain had some stats, think that if they have these same stats they will have an advantage.

This is incorrect, and harmful in a sense that it doesn't just hinder one's progress, it reverses it. A player who has become solely dependent on their HUD stats may win. They may move up levels. However, at some point, their growth in the game will be at its limit. At this point, said player will need to unlearn many of the things they grew dependent on, and relearn it over again. They would realize that while they were profitable with the HUD, they could have been much more profitable if they had learned the game first.

I would like to compare it to fighting since that is something I enjoy. Floydd Mayweather Jr. (147lb Pro Boxing Champ) can fight. No arguments to that. However, if he went in to a UFC fight, he would get dominated. This is due to the fact that there are many more aspects to being a great figher than punching. If Mayweather wanted to become a great fighter, and not just a great boxer, he would have to go back to the beginning and learn everything (including standup fighting) all over again. This may not be the best example ever, but I hope I got my point across. I guess, all I really needed to say is that putting more stock in the HUD than yourself is overrating it.

[Jack Sawyer]

whomever invented the concept of HUDs should be shot down by a firing squad

[ThelVlaster]

I was perusing the FR forum, when I came across a post by Fnord in reply to a HH.

Against a player with less than 5% PFR, adjustments must be made."

I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but Fnord's comment was in response to one of my HH threads

It is a little scary to think that my PAHud could be stunting my growth (I am datamining FT while writing this) but it does make a little sense.

I searched FTR forums for the best stats to display with the hud, and I currently have so many stats showing and I don't really use most of them.

My stats:
VP$IP/PFR/AF Total
Folds Cbet/Cbets/Raises Cbet
W$WSF/WtSD%/W$SD%
AFreq Flop/Turn/River
Hands


This post has made me consider stripping down to VP$IP/PFR/AF Total and possibly getting rid of the hud *cringe*

[frosst]

the easiest thing to do is put the rest on the pop up. that way its there when you need it

[Andrew]

I decided that even though I was going to use PT, I'm not going to be using a HUD. The simple fact is that, for me, a HUD is really there only if you plan on multi-tabling to the point you can't keep a track of the action.

This is only my opinion so take it for what it's worth. HUD allows you to see someone's statistics. We've heard the phrase "there are lies, damned lies and statistics" and especially "you can make statistics say whatever you want". Think about this. If you're feeling a little fruity then you can turn around and say to yourself that player x plays a load of hands so I'm going to call his all in because he plays some crap hands and this hand MAY be one of those crap ones. You've used the VP$IP stat to allow you to make a call you might not make otherwise. I've seen a lot of arguments and discussions about the stats but the bottom line is that if you know someone is playing 20% of his hands and someone else is playing 50% of his hands then in reality that is all you know for certain. Everything else is a reaction to these facts.

Without using HUD I'm having to focus on the action at my tables. I'm having to keep track of when someone makes a move, when they don't and when they fold/reraise like a maniac. Not only that but I'm thinking to myself WHY and remembering previous experiences. Each hand is now a culmination of all my experiences against this player rather than me playing against his stats.

HUD doesn't help me. I can't use a HUD live and for me the more I focus on someone else's #s the less I'm focusing on my own reads and play.

My .02c

[swiggidy]

obv, less stats that you understand are better than more that you don't

[Monty3038]

I decided that even though I was going to use PT, I'm not going to be using a HUD. The simple fact is that, for me, a HUD is really there only if you plan on multi-tabling to the point you can't keep a track of the action.

This is only my opinion so take it for what it's worth. HUD allows you to see someone's statistics. We've heard the phrase "there are lies, damned lies and statistics" and especially "you can make statistics say whatever you want". Think about this. If you're feeling a little fruity then you can turn around and say to yourself that player x plays a load of hands so I'm going to call his all in because he plays some crap hands and this hand MAY be one of those crap ones. You've used the VP$IP stat to allow you to make a call you might not make otherwise. I've seen a lot of arguments and discussions about the stats but the bottom line is that if you know someone is playing 20% of his hands and someone else is playing 50% of his hands then in reality that is all you know for certain. Everything else is a reaction to these facts.

Without using HUD I'm having to focus on the action at my tables. I'm having to keep track of when someone makes a move, when they don't and when they fold/reraise like a maniac. Not only that but I'm thinking to myself WHY and remembering previous experiences. Each hand is now a culmination of all my experiences against this player rather than me playing against his stats.

HUD doesn't help me. I can't use a HUD live and for me the more I focus on someone else's #s the less I'm focusing on my own reads and play.

My .02c

Andrew, I like your thought pattern here. I am still relatively new to poker and working through my issues, and I think a HUD distracted me too much from focusing on the action. I do like the player note features, I use them frequently, making lots of notes on what they went all in with, what they called with from what position, etc.

I don't know if it is possible to run more than 4 tables without a HUD though as I have not been successful that way. 4 Tables is tough with just your memory and I think I play a lot of basic strategy unti late when the tables move down to fewer players.

But I'd like to learn the 'zen' way of playing poker without the HUD, so I can potentially translate that into the brick and mortar casino as well... or just prove that I can play before I start to rely on tools... but that may be a naive approach also.

[pgil]

I just hope that everyone realizes that HUD stats aren't a read. Your HUD won't tell you that your opponent likes to donk bet when calling out of the blinds. Or that he will CR with TPGK on the flop, but smooth call 2pr or better.

It will however help you when first sitting down, during the first orbit or two. I hate facing a big bet from someone that I am unsure of how they play. It will also help you to separate the straightforward ABC TAG on a cold run of cards from the ubernit much more reliably, and will allow you to find the table donkey a little quicker.

I think if you are just starting out you shouldn't be massively multitabling anyways, so having the HUD shouldn't be an issue.

[FyrFytr998]

I was gonna start my own thread, but saw this one. I've been playing poker online for a bit now.

Am I the only FTR member that uses no poker tools at all (I do read plenty of books though)? I've always wanted to try them, but always stopped myself due to the fact that I don't feel I play enough to warrant it.

Could it be my lack of gumption to try it is stopping me from more potential to earn?

[Andrew]

I was gonna start my own thread, but saw this one. I've been playing poker online for a bit now.

Am I the only FTR member that uses no poker tools at all (I do read plenty of books though)? I've always wanted to try them, but always stopped myself due to the fact that I don't feel I play enough to warrant it.

Could it be my lack of gumption to try it is stopping me from more potential to earn?

No Poker Tracker? I understand the usage of PT, I do it myself, so I'd be interested in your thoughts on that.

[grnydrowave2]

I was gonna start my own thread, but saw this one. I've been playing poker online for a bit now.

Am I the only FTR member that uses no poker tools at all (I do read plenty of books though)? I've always wanted to try them, but always stopped myself due to the fact that I don't feel I play enough to warrant it.

Could it be my lack of gumption to try it is stopping me from more potential to earn?

Everyone should get Poker Tracker IMO.

[Unibomber14]

PT is a must as soon as you commit to the game. You may not play many hands together, but if you play consistently PT is a good way to take those hands that are spread out over a couple months and consolidate them into an easily accessible group.

[CoccoBill]

Why do so many of you think using a hud and being observant are mutually exclusive?

[FyrFytr998]

poker tracker can teach you more about how to play your game than any book can. no book can tell you that you're overplaying QJ of that you aren't aggressive enough with draws. so not only is it killing earning potential, you're losing a great self-teaching tool that can improve your game.

I've never thought of it in that context. To be perfectly honest. I was around before poker tracker, so I was around when it was a pain in the ass to use. So I never got into it. Perusing the site now it seems like leaps and bounds what it once was.

Maybe I should give it a go. I would like to see what hands are killing me.

[frosst]

poker tracker can teach you more about how to play your game than any book can. no book can tell you that you're overplaying QJ of that you aren't aggressive enough with draws. so not only is it killing earning potential, you're losing a great self-teaching tool that can improve your game.

[frosst]

plus, poker tools vs studiousness isnt a good comparison, i think you meant "hud vs no hud for better learning" maybe? because poker tracker is all about studying your game......that was why it was created. just someone decided that since it tracks my stats and everyone else's, why not make everyone else's available so i can use it against them, thus the hud was born

[Unibomber14]

TITLE CHANGE!! Good idea frosst.

[kmind]

Mmmmm I love my HUD

[Muzzard]

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...er-t68883.html