Select Page
Poker Forum
Over 1,292,000 Posts!
Poker ForumBeginners Circle

knowing your limit(s)

Results 1 to 10 of 10
  1. #1

    Default knowing your limit(s)

    I play 6max LHE from $1/2 to $10/20 but I think the advice I offer below could also apply to other forms of poker....

    A fairly ingrained part of poker culture is the concept of knowing your limit. We’ve been taught that we should keep playing at a particular limit until we are consistently beating it, and have built up a sufficient bankroll for the next limit, and then move up. Usually in LHE that means you should have at least 300BB or better yet 500BB before tackling the next limit.

    The concept of playing at the limit you’re rolled for definitely has merit. Despite what is sometimes asserted, each limit is in fact harder than the one beneath it. So it makes sense to only move up in limits when you’ve had the experience and success of showing a nice profit at your current limit.

    This strategy has many parallels in the competitive world. Imagine you are a promising young boxer. Assuming you have a decent manager, you will get put up against good competition, competition that challenges you, but competition that you can still beat. Even if your manager thinks you have great potential, he doesn’t just pit you against the world champion your first fight. That same logic applies to a lot of other competitive endeavours as well – you start small and work your way up.

    We are taught as poker players to respect these rules of advancement as well, to only start playing at the next level when we’ve shown we can succeed at the level we’re at.


    Now I’m going to tell you what’s wrong with this 'limited' strategy:

    The difference in skill between the different levels in poker is real, but it’s highly variable. The reason is that, unlike boxing, there is no outside authority regulating who can play at what limit. There is no-one on the poker site watching player X and saying “Excuse me sir, but you really suck at this game and we’re afraid you’re going to get creamed even worse than you already have been these first few hands. We’re throwing in the towel on you - you’ll have to leave this $10/20 table and go play at microstakes. It’s for your own good.” Maybe they should say that, but they don’t.

    But this variance in ability is what makes the game profitable for the good players. Think about it: The way to make money in poker is to sit at tables with players who are not as good as you. Period. You don’t win money sitting with a bunch of guys who are just as good as you. And if you sit at tables where everyone can outplay you then you will lose. So you need to sit at tables where the balance of skill is tilted in your favour. Once you’ve realised this simple fact and consistently implement it in your table selection, it is mathematically certain that you will win money in the long run.

    Again: The way to make money in poker is to sit at tables with players who are not as good as you. And yes, I appreciate that many of you will not find this statement particularly enlightening in and of itself.

    The real question is what is the best way to do this? How do you get the best seats at the most profitable games? The typical strategy of playing at the highest limit supported by your bankroll is a reasonable start, because it allows you to play at the highest limit in which you’re proven to have an edge (or at least improve to have an edge if you’ve just moved up in limit).

    But even if you only play at the softest tables at your chosen limit, you are often still losing profit. Why? Because there may be even softer tables at higher or lower limits, tables at which you could make an even greater profit. It doesn’t take Stephen Hawking to realise that winning 4BB/100 hands at a $1/2 table is better than winning 1 BB/100 hands at a $2/4 table.

    The ideal approach is to select not one limit, but a range of limits (I myself use $1/2 to $10/20, or six different limits). Here’s how I do it:

    1) As the top part of my range, I ensure I am bankrolled for at least 150BB. I’ll explain why this is all you need in a minute.

    2) The bottom part of my range is the one that is a few levels below the top of my range.

    3) Starting at the top of the range, I look for good games. A good game is defined as one in which I expect to have an edge, generally because there is at least one bad player (preferably more) and I feel I can compete with the others at the table.

    4) If there are no good games at the top of my range, I look for good games at the next level. And so on, until I’ve found four or five good tables from the highest limits I can find them at.

    In practice, this means that on a Sunday night ('fish' night), I will often be playing one or two $10/20 tables and one or two $5/10 tables, and maybe a $3/6 table. On a Monday night (when the fishies have gone back to their caves), I will be lucky to find a good game at $5/10 or $10/20. More likely I’ll end up playing one $3/6 games, a $2/4 game, and three $1/2 games.

    So why am I playing $10/20 when my roll is only a minimum of $3k (150 BB)? It’s because I’m not just playing games at $10/20. I’m playing a range of limits, meaning that I am more than adequately bankrolled for the average limit I’m playing at.


    Following this strategy has several obvious advantages:

    1) You can almost never go broke, since you will always have at least 150BB for whatever is the highest level you play at. If you run bad and find you don’t have 150BB for your highest limit, take it off the list and add one at the lower end.

    2) You can play games at a number of levels, and learn how the play differs at each level while you're at it. You get to learn the higher levels gradually rather than just using the sink or swim method that the one-limit strategy entails.

    3) The easy games at the low levels support your bankroll by giving you the means to pad it while you're learning the higher levels.

    4) It makes the game a bit easier psychologically - i.e., you don't feel so bad about having a losing session of 10/20 if you also had two winning sessions of 5/10 and one at 1/2 at the same time. Also you don't feel that you should be spending all your time at a particular level or feel like a loser if you drop one of the higher levels. It just becomes part of the learning process.

    5) Most of all, you can pick from a much larger assortment of games. Now that I play a range of limits, I find it so much easier to find four or five good games than when I just played one.


    So don’t limit yourself to just one limit. It’s much better to limit yourself to just good games.

    Comments, thoughts appreciated.

    DD
    "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    8,697
    Location
    soaking up ethanol, moving on up
    I think this may apply most above a certain limit - $1/$2? Thoughts?

    the difference between 10nl/25nl/50nl/100nl/200nl may be more pronounced than between 200nl and 1k? or maybe I'm wrong.
    There is definitely a huge difference between 10nl and 25nl, and between 25nl and 50nl where I'm playing at the moment...
  3. #3
    I don't like this. I mean, to each their own I guess, but I REALLY don't like this in the beginner's circle. Also, this would only succeed in creating a very high level of variance for a NL player. That's even assuming he/she could beat the highest level they were at. Going down to find games is no big deal, but you shouldn't go up.
    "$80 million Submarine mansion. Think about it."
  4. #4
    Well ok, but I think you've misunderstood the idea behind the op, or perhaps I didn't explain it clearly enough. I'm not advocating a strategy where a beginner starts playing at levels way beyond their abilities or bankroll just because they found a higher-limit table with one bad player on it. Nor am I saying they should skip limits. Rather, what I am saying is that you should be focusing on finding good tables within a range of limits that you can comfortably play at (emphasis on comfortably) instead of just at the one limit that is the limit you're bankroll tells you to play at.

    For a relatively inexperienced player that might mean playing between $.01/.02 and $.25/.50 LHE, even though they have only $150 in their bankroll and haven't played at $.25/.50 before. If they're careful enough to only join in soft games at $.25/.50 they're not only going to maximize their chances of making a profit at the new level, but they will learn how the $.25/.50 game differs from $.10/.20 in a much more gradual way.

    That to me is a lot easier and risk-minimizing approach to learning a new limit than just waiting until you have the standard 300BB and then going up and joining five tables at the new limit one night. The range-of-limits approach is how I've learned $5/10 and am learning $10/20 LHE and it seems to be working for me, though to be fair I've only played about 100k and 20k hands at each of these limits, respectively.

    I appreciate this idea may be a bit advanced for beginners but I understand that other, more experienced players read this forum as well. Also I think it is good advice for anyone, beginner or otherwise, for the reasons I've mentioned here and in the op.

    If you are a complete beginner and have no clue about how to play, by all means stick to $.01/.02 or the play money tables until you get some experience and have read up on the subject. But I assume that even beginners have been doing some reading and are taking the game seriously if they are going to the trouble of looking at posts on FTR. That alone should make someone competitive at the lower limits of LHE imo.
    "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
  5. #5
    Beginner here: I completely agree that you should never start a new limit by opening five tables all at once. That's just suicide. If I go up a limit the first thing I'll be sure to do is to play only one table for a while (8-10 hours probably) - taking notes constantly and thinking deep thoughts about every hand.

    Somehow I'm getting the impression that you're recommending a $50 full buyin at $0.25/$0.50 out of a bankroll of $150. This sound wrong to me, and I don't think your lower winnings at your other tables are going to offset this risk, as much as it's going to distract you and prevent you from playing well where the most of your bankroll is at stake.
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Unibomber14
    Also, this would only succeed in creating a very high level of variance for a NL player.
    I'm not sure how NL works, but unless variance increases exponentially with increasing limits (and I don't recall ever hearing that is does), your overall variance will be lower. This is because you are actually playing more games at the lower limits than at the limit you are rolled for. E.g., in my case my BR is $3k+, so according to most poker books I should be playing at $5/10.

    But using my system I'm actually playing more hands below $5/10 than at $5/10 or $10/20.

    Here's the figures for hands played at each level this month (rounded to the nearest hundred hands)

    $10/20 - 1300
    $5/10 - 7800
    $3/6 - 4500
    $2/4 - 10400
    $1/2 - 7000
    Total = 31000

    Based on these figures, my average limit is $3/6 and thus my variance in cash terms is actually about 40% less than it would be if I had played all 31000 hands at $5/10.
    "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Erpel
    Somehow I'm getting the impression that you're recommending a $50 full buyin at $0.25/$0.50 out of a bankroll of $150. This sound wrong to me, and I don't think your lower winnings at your other tables are going to offset this risk, as much as it's going to distract you and prevent you from playing well where the most of your bankroll is at stake.
    Sorry guys I play LHE not NL. I don't have to decide whether to risk a third of my entire bankroll on one hand. What is the standard bankroll requirement for a given level of NL?
    "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Erpel

    Somehow I'm getting the impression that you're recommending a $50 full buyin at $0.25/$0.50 out of a bankroll of $150. This sound wrong to me, and I don't think your lower winnings at your other tables are going to offset this risk, as much as it's going to distract you and prevent you from playing well where the most of your bankroll is at stake.


    Quote Originally Posted by DrivingDog
    ... you should be focusing on finding good tables within a range of limits that you can comfortably play at (emphasis on comfortably).
    "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by DrivingDog
    Quote Originally Posted by Erpel
    Somehow I'm getting the impression that you're recommending a $50 full buyin at $0.25/$0.50 out of a bankroll of $150. This sound wrong to me, and I don't think your lower winnings at your other tables are going to offset this risk, as much as it's going to distract you and prevent you from playing well where the most of your bankroll is at stake.
    Sorry guys I play LHE not NL. I don't have to decide whether to risk a third of my entire bankroll on one hand. What is the standard bankroll requirement for a given level of NL?
    30-50 x 100bb (or whatever someone sits down at the table with). For micro limits a lot of people are saying 20-30x and then increase that amount as and when you need to depending on whatever factors they decide to pull out of their jacksee to allow them to move up sooner than they may be ready for.
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew

    30-50 x 100bb (or whatever someone sits down at the table with). For micro limits a lot of people are saying 20-30x and then increase that amount as and when you need to depending on whatever factors they decide to pull out of their jacksee to allow them to move up sooner than they may be ready for.
    well in that case 150BB is obviously not enough for NL. More like if the book says 30-50 BI, you can join a good table at a limit with 15-25 BI. Of course, that assumes you are able to understand what makes a table good. And if you are reading and learning about poker I would hope that you do understand that. But if not, disregard my advice.
    "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •