another i have to point out to the newer guy

[Chopper]

please dont ever, ever do this. if you ever read anything about "odds based river calls," you will quickly see why.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($11.95)
UTG+1 ($18.30)
MP1 ($6.70)
MP2 ($37.65)
MP3 ($13)
CO ($23.40)
Hero ($24.65)
SB ($4.25)
BB ($5)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, T.
UTG raises to $0.75, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.75, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.75, 2 folds.

Flop: ($2.60) 2, Q, 5 (3 players)
UTG bets $0.75, MP1 calls $0.75, Hero calls $0.75.

Turn: ($4.85) 8 (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $3, UTG folds, MP1 calls $3.

River: ($10.85) 3 (2 players)
MP1 bets $1.5, Hero raises to $3.5, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: $13.85

the river push by me was designed only because i wasnt folding and villain had only $.70 left after their lead. ahead or behind, $.70 isnt going to affect anything i do long term. but, if you are in villain's position, DONT EVER FOLD A $14 POT FOR AN EXTRA $.70!! i dont care if you have a total bluff, you dont have to win a showdown but 5% of the time to break even here. villain just gave up on $14 because of an extra $.70. wow.

[Andrew]

I've seen this a lot. It's not the amount which has been bet but the fact that someone has bet or raise/reraised them which throws people off a hand. Basically they are playing their cards and not thinking beyond that, correct?

A question on your play. I understand the call preflop but why did you just proceed to call the bet and call on the flop? Was it because of your kicker or was you planning on doing a bet/raise on the turn if both players slowed down? Would you have just called a turn bet here? At what stage (if any) would you have considered to fold?

[bode]

fold preflop

[jyms]

fold preflop

QFT! as played raise the flop, why are you letting every hand draw for cheap? Also, why are you sitting at a table with 5 players having less than a 50BB's, 2 with 20BB's or less?

[Chopper]

fold preflop

dammit, i knew someone would say that. on the button, to very loose open raiser, on a passive table, i am playing QT at 25NL and below ALL DAY. besides, that was not the point of the post...it was the river play by villain.

I've seen this a lot. It's not the amount which has been bet but the fact that someone has bet or raise/reraised them which throws people off a hand. Basically they are playing their cards and not thinking beyond that, correct?

A question on your play. I understand the call preflop but why did you just proceed to call the bet and call on the flop? Was it because of your kicker or was you planning on doing a bet/raise on the turn if both players slowed down? Would you have just called a turn bet here? At what stage (if any) would you have considered to fold?

a lot of times, yes, they are only thinking of their cards.

the "play"... i doubt i will ever RR with QTo. it is way too easily dominated and i need to hit a flop to put much money in. this was primarily a "fish call," and because of the other caller. i should have mentioned that, but didnt think i would be criticized since the idea of the post was the river. villain was VERY passive post flop, and, to me, that means he wont cbet. so, i am likely to get checked to, where i will stab any scary pot he checks.

when i hit TP, i wanted to see another card since villain bets only $.75 into $2.50 (another thing not to do by the fish....if you bet, bet harder than that...i drop this to a 3/4 pot bet). i am looking for a reason to fold, but that weak ass bet isnt one when i hold TPdecentK.

turn bricks. and, i am looking to fold to a more serious bet, but they both check. now, i feel best (ahhh, position), and i make a 2/3 bet to discourage draws. maybe my bet is too small, but given that villain only bet $.75, why risk betting pot? my bet looks bigger to them anyway. since, a Q bets again here w/ flush draws out, 2 pair is trying to get money in this pot and bets pretty hard, and sets dont want to see a flush screw them, i feel i am ahead here. basically, the Q is good. although, i wanted the pot on the turn, i didnt get it. and, by calling, the MP player was virtually committed. i am either trapped or best, but i cant fold without a scare card on river. no diamond, or over card on river, and i go for his stack. he only has $2.20 left. if he is deeper (another fish tip....dont buy in short), i am still stressed over the hand, and am not looking for stacks.

river bricks all but A4, which i doubt is likely, and he leads? i could be beat, but for $1.50 into $11, i only need to be correct 14% of the time to make this call profitable. and, since i am way more confident than that, i want the rest since its only $.70 more. if he had another $5 behind, i only call in case he is trying to get me to raise his weak river lead.

bottom line...villains never took "real" control of the pot, so i did.

[jyms]

Chopper? I think you need to stop teaching the beginners and start learning. What the villain did is of no value to anyone, but how you played this hand could be of value to you. Have you ever heard of the gap theory? If not, then look at this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAzXDKV-VvU

If the villain calls this bet with 55 or even AQo we never see this hand, but you probably have hundreds of them in your database. This shows something about your play and if you don't want to hear about it then we will stop posting for you.

[Chopper]

Chopper? I think you need to stop teaching the beginners and start learning. What the villain did is of no value to anyone, but how you played this hand could be of value to you. Have you ever heard of the gap theory? If not, then look at this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAzXDKV-VvU

forgive me here, TJ. but, who asked you? i dont see you in here trying to help very often anymore. i dont see you doing much but asking me to post my stats. all i see is someone looking to destroy another poster's credibility.

i stated the purpose of the post was the river play. i think that is very valuable to newer players. i see them fold without considering how little they have to call compared to the size of a pot. and, i see them asking questions about calculating such.

i dont recall ever telling you that you should stop trying to help. or, that your advice is bad. or, that you should learn more about the game. i dont remember ever saying anything but GOOD things about you, your posts, your videos, and your website.

in fact, i have seen you in here blasting courtie for the same types of things. and telling her that maybe YOU should be the mod of this forum, and that she basically has nothing to offer.

so, if you can do a better job, get down off your high horse and get in here and DO IT. and, btw, lets see some stats of yours, if youre such the pro.

i have tried to avoid getting overly sensitive towards these types of comments. but, this wasnt necessary, imo. next time, if you want to be critical of anyone, do it in a private message....not in public view.

it only makes you look like an ass. is that the publicity you want for your site?

and, i noticed your "edit" to your post. trying to get all nicey at the end. i quoted your ORIGINAL message in its, then, entirety. where did that last paragraph come from?

[jyms]

Wow, I seem to remember someone asking to have it "given to me straight"

forgive me here, TJ. but, who asked you? i don't see you in here trying to help very often anymore. i don't see you doing much but asking me to post my stats. all i see is someone looking to destroy another poster's credibility.

I wasn't even close to attempting to destroy your "credibility" I am shocked at your first response to what was said in this thread when we tried to help. As for posting here, I have over 70 posts in the beginner forum alone this month, as well as helping all the members on this site and Grinderschool as well as over AIM, MSN and in Vent every day. Ask anyone who has talked to me on any of those avenues and they will tell you I make as much time for them as needed. In fact I am sure some will post in here to attest to that fact.

i stated the purpose of the post was the river play. i think that is very valuable to newer players. i see them fold without considering how little they have to call compared to the size of a pot. and, i see them asking questions about calculating such.

So we should never mention that we think you could do something about your play?

i dont recall ever telling you that you should stop trying to help. or, that your advice is bad. or, that you should learn more about the game. i dont remember ever saying anything but GOOD things about you, your posts, your videos, and your website.

You may want to rethink this thought, and while you are thinking, remember some comments you and Pythonic have made to each other.

in fact, i have seen you in here blasting courtie for the same types of things. and telling her that maybe YOU should be the mod of this forum, and that she basically has nothing to offer.

This is not the way things went down and you know that.

so, if you can do a better job, get down off your high horse and get in here and DO IT. and, btw, lets see some stats of yours, if youre such the pro.

I posted my stats for the last two months and my whole story since Aug, in my blog earlier today, have a look.

i have tried to avoid getting overly sensitive towards these types of comments. but, this wasnt necessary, imo. next time, if you want to be critical of anyone, do it in a private message....not in public view.

I didn't think my first post was critical beyond i thought you wanting to have everything straight, and not beat around the bush. I thought I was giving you some advice about something you may be doing particularly wrong

it only makes you look like an ass. is that the publicity you want for your site?

I have no problems with this type of post being publicity for my site, which by the way gave you 2 months free to look around and view all the vids, which I have seen no mention of here or in any other forum and the first time you mention it is in this post?

[Chopper]

yes, you should tell me about my play...when i am asking for the advice. not when i am making another point. we have successfully derailed the thread.

dont know about the "pythonic thing." i am not bringing anyone else into this. this post is between me and you. however, clearly, this could be some kind of motivation tonight?

my recollection of the "courtie incident" was of you getting overly aggressive with her, and a lot of flaming in both directions. she also tried to back out, and you refused to let her...just firing harder and harder.

as for the "publicity of your site," yes, you gave me 2 months comp. and, i appreciate that. but, i was also told not to mention THAT to anyone. i have spoken very highly, and still will, of GrinderSchool.com to anyone looking for videos, articles, another forum. i have done so in numerous pm's, FTR's chat, emails, to family members, etc... privately? yes. but, have done so in FTR several times, as well. i have posted underneath you several times speaking of your avatar. i cant make them pay a subscription fee, but i have brought people to your site.

my loyalty, inside FTR, is to them. you guys said you were ok with that. i said i would mention you when appropriate, and whenever relevant as a thank you. i did not say i would be all over FTR looking for every avenue possible to promote you. and, i think i have lived up to what i said. sorry you disagree. more motivation tonight? hmmm.

that is all i have to say about tha-at.

[bode]

chopper, calm the fuck down dude. youre way too uptight and sensitive. What TJ says in his initial response to you sums it up. Its great that you are trying to help beginners, but by posting hands like this and claiming they are "advice", even if it is supposed to be one street only, the horrific play in this hand doesnt really help anything. Calling w/ QTs here to a raise OCCAISIONALLY is fine, after multiple limpers/cold callers is standard, but calling QTo in this spot is a huge leak. This is a leak in a 6max game, let alone a FR game.

cliffs notes: calm down and take advice as well as you give it.

[jyms]

Post # 1

fold preflop

QFT! as played raise the flop, why are you letting every hand draw for cheap? Also, why are you sitting at a table with 5 players having less than a 50BB's, 2 with 20BB's or less?

post # 2

Chopper? I think you need to stop teaching the beginners and start learning. What the villain did is of no value to anyone, but how you played this hand could be of value to you. Have you ever heard of the gap theory? If not, then look at this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAzXDKV-VvU

If the villain calls this bet with 55 or even AQo we never see this hand, but you probably have hundreds of them in your database. This shows something about your play and if you don't want to hear about it then we will stop posting for you.

in case you forgot where this started chopper.

[Robb]

Post # 1

fold preflop

QFT! as played raise the flop, why are you letting every hand draw for cheap? Also, why are you sitting at a table with 5 players having less than a 50BB's, 2 with 20BB's or less?

I'm very tired of the short stackers. I can't seem to find enough tables to play where all the stacks are deep. If I left every table that had this profile, I'd be a 2-tabler, not a 9-tabler.

I can see an argument for folding pre, and I think both Chopper and I do fold it pre the vast majority of the time. But no one asked about his reads before claiming his play was a "horrific" example to newbies. Where I play, this line isn't a huge leak, and it's +EV against the right players. On the other hand, Chopper, you probably should have given your preflop reads in the op, if the villains were weak and loose.

And I disagree with trainer - there's a lot to learn from villain's play here. I see it a good bit, especially from the ubiquitous short stackers we're unable to avoid.

[daven]

fold pre.
villain had a draw and played it ok until the river - where he should have pushed.
and everyone calm down yo! so much to learn off everyone here, there's sometimes more than one way to skin a cat

[Jibalob]

I half agree with Chopper and half agree with TJ / Bode.

There has most likely been a mis-understanding here as I am sure Chopper must know that QT is not the kind of hand you would usually call with here.

I will often make plays that look horrific to an observer watching that single hand in isolation but may seem like a good play if they had been watching the whole session.

Anyway, everyone needs to r-e-l-a-x!
I bet downswings / tilt are behind some of the comments and general tone in this thread.

TJ - Your post did come across a little off but these things are easily done unintentionaly online (especially when giving advice).
Chopper - Regardless of whether or not there was a spiteful element to TJ's post (I don't think there was TBH) you may be over-reacting a tad, although I see your point about examining the river play in isolation (see the more useful part of my post above).


Oh... and, um... don't make these river folds as stated in OP.

[Pelion]

yea call river with A 7

[Jack Sawyer]

The point of the entire post was to never fold in a $14 pot when all you have to risk to win that pot is $0.70, not what starting hands to play and when and how.

This point was clearly stated (Chopper even boldfaced this message) in the OP. No need to attack his play.


I guess Jibalob stated this best

I will often make plays that look horrific to an observer watching that single hand in isolation but may seem like a good play if they had been watching the whole session.

Anyway, everyone needs to r-e-l-a-x!
I bet downswings / tilt are behind some of the comments and general tone in this thread.

Oh... and, um... don't make these river folds as stated in OP.

[Silly String]

Wow this thread is just wow. I don't frequent the beginner's forum much but I wanted to see Spoonit's Stars rakebisack thread and ran across this. Maybe this thread is why. Wow, seriously, don't turn this into another internet forum that I hate. You know the one's where someone's e-dick is bigger than someone else's e-dick.
My thoughts: I agree with Jack Sawyer. This isn't posted in the HH forum for review it was brought up to show a specific point about odds based river calls or pot commitment.
TJ, your first response was blunt which is fine. Chopper defended his reason for opening and then your second response was downright insulting. Chopper never said anything offensive up to that point. Then you both got childish and started throwing e-spitballs.
I'm going back to the SHNL forum where people play nice.

[Pythonic]

TJ,

Why are you bringing me into this conversation man? This thread's purpose is regarding the river fold by from the villian. It has nothing to do with preflop play or earlier streets. Your preflop and flop raise comments are most likely correct but they do not belong in this thread. I see no need to bash Chopper about something he wasn't even talking about.

[freechus9]

You know the one's where someone's e-dick is bigger than someone else's e-dick.

My e-dick is huge. Just my 2 cents.

[overdraft]

I know I don't post a lot but I do hang around this site quite a bit and I have seen MANY times in which Chooper and TJ try to help out whoever they can. I know that I appreciate both of your input and i personally wouldn't want either of you to be dettered from posting what you think might be helpful info.

Chopper- I know why you made this thread and I think everyone here wholeheartedly agrees with the concept of your post. That being said, if I were to post this hand as an example I would love to have some sort of constructive criticism on any part of the hand. As was stated earlier maybe you had specific reasons for playing the hand the way you did and maybe you didn't we don't know. But I do strongly believe that TJ's first post was nothing more than trying to help somebody and the fact that he took time out to do so is something I think you should appreciate. It would have been a hell of a lot easier for him to pretend he didn't see it and not to bring something he considered a leak to your attention.

TJ- While I really believe that you were just trying to help your second post was kind of harsh. While you stated why you didn't think it was a good play, especially at fr, I think you could have done that without telling Chopper to stop trying to help other people.

That is what FTR is for me and I am sure everyone else as well. The reason everyone is here is to either help or be helped. Personally, you guys have worked wonders for my game and I am sure other people will tell you the same thing.

PS. I completely agree with SS that this place should not be turned into a site that does nothing but bashing. FTR my homepage for a reason