TAG trying to go LAG...

[Chopper]

TAG is using the term loosely. i'm a friggin' nit. but, i want to experiment with REALLY opening the game up in lp.

i read an article from negreanu awhile ago, maybe 2 years, but it stuck with me. he played solid all week long, and on Friday, he would blow off steam from earlier bad beats by playing like a donkey LAG. he said it helped him stay focused during the week because he knew Friday was LAGgy day. it helped him read hands better, pick up on when people were playing back, and helped him avoid marginal spots. but, it also helped his "image" against the regs he played against. (lets not kid ourselves. at 25NL, my image wont be affected much, if at all.)

i, also, read an older article by erick lindgren last night kind of along the same lines. he said to try playing 80% of pots for a session for much the same reasons. (someone prolly knows that article from FTP)

i gave it a shot at lunch. i dropped all the way down to 2NL. (i know they call like crazy, but i figure this will take awhile to learn.) i ran 55/35/1.5 had a W$SF of 45% and a W$SD right at 50%....and broke even.

i learned one major thing. i SUCK at hand reading. those $2 players still folded most of the time, and only played back with the goods. i started with $3 and worked it up to $6.75, but started seeing the table play back, and switched back to TAG for a bit, got a cold deck on the flop, and consequently got bumped out of a lot of raised pots dropping me back to $4ish. i could see when they adjusted. i could avoid the rocks (believe it or not, they are present). i played toe-to-toe with the other LAG.

IT WAS SO MUCH FUN. it was a shame to cut the session short (damned snow...had to plow).

all in all, it wasnt that difficult, but it was such a small sample, i may be sooooo much worse than i think. i kept feeling a tug to revert back to nit when scared and not knowing where i was in a hand.

but, i feel it cant help but improve my game. i will be doing it for a few sessions a week until i get a better handle on the style. after all, who cant afford 5 BIs of $3, a couple times a week, with a roll for 50NL?

you cant take the nit out of me completely...lol.

[BankItDrew]

good idea chopper, this will do nothing but help your game you nit. The only thing worse than not winning money playing poker is not learning anything. Practice and play hard and let us know how it works out.

[Chopper]

as always, drew, thanks for the support.

[JeffreyGB]

I agree that this should be great for you. I'd suggest something once you are a bit more comfortable with the LAG style:

Stop thinking of yourself in terms of LAG or TAG. That's good for starting out, but once you have both skillsets, it's time to really jump your game and adjust which you play for the situation you're playing. That starts with being the LAG at the TAG tables, and the TAG at the LAG tables, but ultimately extends to varying how tight/loose you play to the individual players left to act in the hand.

With good reads, it can even pay off to introduce some passivity into your game

[BankItDrew]

^^^
good point. you can't always just be laggy

[minSim]

I think in general solid TAG preflop (19/15 or something) is probably better at the 50NL stakes, also considering your stage in the poker lifecycle.

Of course the lessons learned from playing monkey LAG can be very valuable. But seeing players like CTS running 50/30 or something over thousands of hands on high stakes very likely isn't the most profitable way to play 50NL. I believe once you get better, move up, get more confidence, can assign ranges better, know your equity and FE and how to deal with it, etc. etc. your game will start opening up automatically, just because you can play more hands profitable. I don't think you should opening up, just for opening up. If you don't know how to play them, just open up a few more tables and you'll play the same number of hands as a LAG.

But yes, I think the lessons can be very valuable, but I'm not sure if they are at 2NL.

[Chopper]

i appreciate all the thoughts/advice.

these are my thoughts and responses:

- this is only an experiment. not a wholesale change. NO WAY lag dominates lower levels because of all the passivity. they just call you down too much. this is more an experiment to force me to open my game, once a week, and learn to "pick spots" better with nothing by playing the player, and pouncing on weakness, not necessarily my cards. of course, i look to play weak 2 pair hands, get underneath somebodys range and hit a flop, and learn when to steal, and when not to with a wide mix of hands from air, baby connectors, to AA.

- i also expect to learn/watch for the table switching gears on me. picking up those signals is absolutely imperative, imo.

- it does help alleviate previous frustration, but to be done correctly, there is still a large amount of discipline in a LAG strategy. you cant just play 83o like AA everytime you get it. its a lesson in "selective aggression independent of specific holdings."

- as far as "labels," i only use LAG and TAG because thats what all of us understand when its said. it should go w/o saying that playing only LAG or only TAG will get too predictable. you need to be able to flip flop. not really flip flop, but "interweave" those two together. thats the aim, but first you need to learn the two separately, imo, before you start weaving the styles together.

- i, when attempting LAG, am looking for a completely different table structure, which is so much fun i cant describe it. i AM looking for rocks. i AM looking for the TAGs. these are the opponents i want at table, if i want to run over it with as little resistance as possible. i want chronic folders. i want people to get so damned frustrated they leave, or play back at me for the sake of doing so...thats when i win. i look for tight table %'s specifically. i'm not sure about avg. pot, but you cant go wrong with a table % in the low 30's from 10NL and below. thats about as tight as you will find.

i have more ramblings, and i'm sure i will come up with EVEN more over the next few weeks. we'll have to see how i develop as i give this a go.

again, the reason for 2NL is to start out. i will move up soon enough through 5NL and 10NL. i drop way down as a test for the style, and if i lose a gajillion BI's adjusting, it wont put a dent in the br. i'll move up as i get more confident in my risk for ruin.

some hands to follow...

[Chopper]

hand one...i had a maniac to my right, and he and i were going at it a bit. i had to watch the others at the table, as they were just spectators paying blinds for the most part...these wont be the greatest examples other than the fact they are hands i would not normally consider playing as a TAG.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (4 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($5.16)
SB ($3.43)
BB ($5.66)
UTG ($1.16)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, 7.
UTG raises to $0.06, Hero calls $0.06, 1 fold, BB calls $0.04.

Flop: ($0.19) 8, 9, 7 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $0.06, Hero raises to $0.16, BB folds, UTG calls $0.10.

Turn: ($0.51) 3 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.36, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $0.51


two...maniac on my right again, but tight-passive minraises pf. standard float oop, imo.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Hero ($6.40)
UTG ($0.93)
MP ($4.83)
Button ($0.93)
SB ($4.07)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
UTG raises to $0.04, 2 folds, SB raises to $0.08, Hero calls $0.06, UTG calls $0.04.

Flop: ($0.24) , , (3 players)
SB bets $0.04, Hero calls $0.04, UTG folds.

Turn: ($0.32) (2 players)
SB bets $0.04, Hero calls $0.04.

River: ($0.40) (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.3, SB folds.

Final Pot: $0.40

three...testbook LAG play, imo. below 25NL, no one is going to 3bet a sc. but, into a maniac, they should...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (4 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Hero ($5.54)
SB ($3.27)
BB ($5.57)
UTG ($1.03)

Preflop: Hero is Button with , .
UTG raises to $0.06, Hero raises to $0.2, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.14.

Flop: ($0.43) , , (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.26, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $0.43


and, this is what it all sets up...the main way LAGs get paid. frustrated villains that never know when you DO have the goods...

to TAGs wake up and try to take me on...i am trying to c/r AI, but that may not be ideal, as i am oop and the 4 bettor, but it worked anyway.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Hero ($2.71)
UTG ($3.45)
MP ($5.71)
Button ($2.62)
SB ($1.17)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
1 fold, MP raises to $0.08, Button raises to $0.24, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.64, MP folds, Button calls $0.40.

Flop: ($1.37) , , (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($1.37) (2 players)
Hero bets $1.02, Button raises to $1.98, Hero calls $0.96.

River: ($5.33) (2 players)

Final Pot: $5.33

[kingnat]

I've been trying the same type of strategy to get out of my less than optimal 15/8, or 20/10 type game and get more into a 16/13 or there abouts... Best of luck.

[Chopper]

I've been trying the same type of strategy to get out of my less than optimal 15/8, or 20/10 type game and get more into a 16/13 or there abouts... Best of luck.

oh man, can i feel your pain. but, for me, going from 20/10 to 14/12 just bored the hell out of me. besides, the tighter you get, the less big pots you win (villains dont pay off the rock), and the MORE BLIND MONEY YOU PAY!!

i'm trying to get an article worded properly that will show how much you lose the tighter you play at 6max. i used to think that the spewdonkeys would overcome the blind money, but i dont think even they can. the blinds just come too quickly. god forbid someone leaves a fishy table and you have to play 15/12 4-handed. JESUS, that one sucks.

for TAGs like us, tighter is easier, but its not the answer. plain and simple. opening more tables, while killing boredom, simply increases the size of the "hole in the boat" when it comes to blinds.

i run 20/10 and beat the games for about 3-5, give or take. i rock it down to 15/12 or less, and i struggle to get above 2.5/100. all this is over small samples, and i dont feel i've had a sustained heater for 25k+ hands. but, all tightening up has done is turn me into a bigger nit...and make that "heater" more impossible to sustain. and that, clearly, is not the answer.

its time to learn LAG....as much as i dont want to. if i can read hands better, avoid marginally losing spots, but punish marginally winning spots, and open up appropriately from CO+, i consider that to be worth its weight in DUCKETS!!

i will prop bet a milkshake that my winrate goes to 5+ after figuring this out. its almost time for another "limit stint," too. but, thats another topic for another day...and one thing at a time.

sorry these are getting long, but its just chopper being chopper.

[DBL0SVN]

its time to learn LAG....as much as i dont want to. if i can read hands better, avoid marginally losing spots, but punish marginally winning spots, and open up appropriately from CO+, i consider that to be worth its weight in DUCKETS!!

Ok, so you have different opening ranges, but are LAG and TAG really that different when it comes to postflop? Is it that different whether you have AK or 89s in your hand when you miss the flop? With both you are going to consider a cb, bet the scare card on the turn, fold if villain plays back hard etc. My point is that it is not helpful to consider LAG and TAG as 2 wholly different ways to play poker. The points you mentioned above apply to any game LAG or TAG - just good aggressive post flop poker.

[Chopper]

its time to learn LAG....as much as i dont want to. if i can read hands better, avoid marginally losing spots, but punish marginally winning spots, and open up appropriately from CO+, i consider that to be worth its weight in DUCKETS!!

Ok, so you have different opening ranges, but are LAG and TAG really that different when it comes to postflop? Is it that different whether you have AK or 89s in your hand when you miss the flop? With both you are going to consider a cb, bet the scare card on the turn, fold if villain plays back hard etc. My point is that it is not helpful to consider LAG and TAG as 2 wholly different ways to play poker. The points you mentioned above apply to any game LAG or TAG - just good aggressive post flop poker.

i think i see where you are coming from, and basically, i agree. but, what you are not considering, imo, is just HOW MANY "tough spots" you put yourself in when opening your range up.

a "TAG" will be in marginal spots when missing flops, 2barreling, etc. but, just by the nature of the increased number of hands a "LAG" is bloating a pot with, he will be in a marginal situation FAR more often. not to mention, he will have players "laying for him" and playing back. the TAG will be getting more respect, and his bluffs dont need the timing of the LAG because of this. thus, forcing you to rely on reads and a greater post flop game, than a "TAG."

whereas a "TAG" can fall back on powerful cards and kickers to get him through said tough spots, a "LAG" has a bigger decision to "push or back off," and its largely based on OPPONENTS, not CARDS.

[JeffreyGB]

The other factor that makes you play postflop differently as a LAG or TAG is image. Your opponents will react much differently to you; you should be identifying how that is manifesting itself, and adjusting accordingly.

[DBL0SVN]

I don't think the increased number of tough spots affects how you play them, but you and JeffGB do have a point in that your opps reaction to your play does affect the way you yourself approach the hand. Good solid postflop poker is still the basis for both styles, but with a wider opening range I agree you have to be more aware of how your opp is reacting.

[Robb]

I've been trying the same type of strategy to get out of my less than optimal 15/8, or 20/10 type game and get more into a 16/13 or there abouts... Best of luck.

I play NL10 almost exclusively at a rate of about 5.5 ptBB/100 with a pretty consistent 21/17/3.5 style. I play 9/9 UTG and more like 33/25 on the button.

I really think position is key. I've posted that on other threads, but I'll say it again here. Also, my aggressiveness is increasing, probably 4.0+ over last 5k hands. Another key: bet, raise or get out of there.

About playing the maniac style, I think it's a good experiment. What a rush it would be to play 80/40 one session on one table! I may try this at NL10 some day soon. I think there IS a point to playing maniac just for the sake of playing maniac. I think I would learn a lot.

[Chopper]

thats the whole point of this, robb.

i am playing it to "learn" how...so i can utilize it when appropriate. for instance, you have limited game selection and find yourself at a table full of rock nits. its time to LAG it up because they are so exploitable.

i am also learning how to play it so i can watch what the LAGs do to me and get inside the better players' heads a little. again, to exploit them.

i didnt get my chance to play LAG this week, as i am so burned out at the moment, i had been playing limit to control my spew.

bringing up another point you made, robb. just an FYI on my part...be careful of the "bet/raise or get out" part of your comment. and the AF cruising over 4+ can be dangerous, too. low stakes is "fit or fold." you can overplay your hands at these tables, as this is what has caused my variance to increase exponentially. and, when the cards turn on you, it easily becomes superspew. you will run super hot when the cards are with you, but it will get extremely expensive...and frustrating...when the cards turn.

i'm sure you know that, but i thought it worth mentioning because i find my self on a 35k breakeven run (with my 10NL tables running negative). i would have told you two months ago that that was absolutely impossible, but i have been overplaying hands, and being WAY to aggressive, and that causes my bad run to get even worse.

solid poker is just as much about minimizing losses as it is about maximizing gains....and when your foot is always "on the gas pedal," its easy to lose sight of when its time to slow down.