curious HHs

[Chopper]

villain was new to table...appeared active at first...factor that into your read. however, i want to know if your read "changes" later. hopefully, this will be a post flop lesson for me, as well as, a lesson in not jumping to conclusions too quickly when trying to classify a player. thanks.

by active, i mean he's been in most pots. not necessarily raising/betting, but taking lots of flops. i think i've seen about 10ish hands and he's been in on more than half...again, not necessarily aggressive.

hand one...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($17.90)
BB ($24.75)
UTG ($20.60)
MP1 ($8.15)
MP2 ($8.05)
CO ($24.65)
Hero ($23.45)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A.
3 folds, CO calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, CO calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.35) 8, 5, J (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $1.5, CO calls $1.50.

Turn: ($5.35) Q (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $3.5, CO calls $3.50.

River: ($12.35) J (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $6, CO raises to $15, Hero ??

was this a correct fold? i just had a feeling i was being slowplayed here, but by what? QJ? i figure he either had me outflopped, hit his J on river, or bluffed me off with a busted draw on the scare card. i would hate for it to be the latter, but i didnt have enough history with the guy to take the chance. was that correct? a reluctant fold? remember, we are at 25NL. i fold this w/o a read that he bluffs. at 10NL, i pay this off, unless i have that he DOESNT bluff.


hand two...literally like 2 hands later...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Button ($17.80)
SB ($24.50)
BB ($8)
UTG ($20.60)
UTG+1 ($8.15)
MP1 ($8.05)
MP2 ($35.85)
Hero ($21.45)

Preflop: Hero is CO with , .
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1, 3 folds, MP2 calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.35) , , (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $1.5, MP2 raises to $34.85, Hero ??

maybe for this hand you need to know i folded the first one. but, try not to take that into consideration with advice for the first hand. the $1.50 was a bit weak i guess. cant remember if i had a reason/thought at the time. prolly should have been $1.75.

thx

[NLHE lahooozaher]

I would fold both. People aren't bluffing on the river at NL$25 when you show this much strength. I would confidently lay down my aces here.

In the second hand he either has a big draw(Ahxh/4h6h/KhQh/56/etc.) or already has you beaten, in which case folding is the best play. The only hand you beat that may play like this is a badly played 66 which IMO is the least likely. I think your betsize on the flop is fine btw, though I like $1.25 preflop after a limper.

[bigslikk]

For the first hand, my gut says he has you beat. He limp /calls, which could any crap, really. The flop, he merely smooth calls. This move tells me that either:
A. He has a flush draw or OESD.
B. He is calling with top pair, jacks, and doesn't know where he's at. (I'm thinking JT or worse here, he didn't raise)
C. He's floating with crap to steal later.
D. Maybe a set...?

In any case, the straight draw came (9T hits), top pair hits trips, the set boats up... the only case where you win is the busted flush draw or some complex move where he floated two streets.

It takes big balls to float the turn like that to bluff river. If he did that (unlikely) then he probably deserves the pot anyway. Fold.

The second hand is easier, in my opinion. The bet may be a little weak... and it *might've* caused Action Al to try a move on you. However, I don't like calling huge overbets with just a pair. If he's that aggressive with air, you'll stack him later.

[Pelion]

1) I like a check behind on that river. The flushdraw isnt calling a bet anyway. The straight draw got there. The J got there. All you beat is something like KQ that floated.

2) I think its quite close. QQ is a snap call. JJ is probably still a call. TT is probably just about a fold but it depends on how donkish you think he is. I dont think its an easy fold against this guy.

[Chopper]

agreed.

in hand two, i was praying i had QQ...my min for calling there. i see JJ beat a little too often to stack off pre. but, thats me, a nit.

hand one, i didnt even think check-behind. i thought VALUE, VALUE, VALUE...knowing i would drop to a raise. and he was prolly planning that c/r the whole time after that river card. that bastard.......oops, i mean me...lol.

i also agree that most people are NOT bluffing the river with previous street aggression in their faces. even c/c, c/c, lead river for value lines are signals of strength, but i cant ever seem to fold to them.



anyway, how bout this? i mentioned i THOUGHT he was active early on. he was, but that may have been a heater. he really cooled it after that AI push pre against my TT. i folded both, btw, i just wanted confirmation that i wasnt exactly getting "schooled."

since he really chilled out over the next 35-40 hands, and actually started appearing tight-passive, doesnt that scream even harder that i was beat in those hands?

point is, by catching him on a heater, and jumping to conclusions, i almost paid his ass off. that would have gotten under my skin a bit as the hands wore on, and he didnt stay active.

a maniac is with a hand is one thing. a rock that pushes pre-flop or c/r's a paired board is totally different.

so much for "reads" w/in the first orbit. but, we knew that already. i just almost forgot it.

thanks for the confirmations.

[NLHE lahooozaher]

i also agree that most people are NOT bluffing the river with previous street aggression in their faces. even c/c, c/c, lead river for value lines are signals of strength, but i cant ever seem to fold to them.

anyway, how bout this? i mentioned i THOUGHT he was active early on. he was, but that may have been a heater. he really cooled it after that AI push pre against my TT. i folded both, btw, i just wanted confirmation that i wasnt exactly getting "schooled."

Chopper, even if this one guy is bluffing or has the one hand you beat this time doesn't mean you're getting schooled. You're not getting good odds to call and see. You need 43.8% equity to call in hand 2, the closest equity I could come up with is 34.45% and that was with a looseish range. Hand 1 you're getting good odds, you only need to be right 21.45% of the time and it's pretty close but I lean to fold because people aren't bluffing. Just my $.02.

[Miffed22001]

check behind in 1. his range is made up seriously of Jx lots especially after limping.
In 2 even if he has some sort of combo draw you are drawing 50/05ish and the rest of the time you may be smoked so folding here is acceptbale, but in the heat of the moment i guarentee i call this.

[nickthefool]

Both are folds, but betting river in hand 1 without a strong read at this level is horrible imho. The only hands you beat that villain can call with are played weirdly, and also require villain to put you on air (which is hard as you bet 3 streets).

Apart from that i think you played both hands fine though.

[Chopper]

Both are folds, but betting river in hand 1 without a strong read at this level is horrible imho. The only hands you beat that villain can call with are played weirdly, and also require villain to put you on air (which is hard as you bet 3 streets).

Apart from that i think you played both hands fine though.

this is where i need the most work on my game currently. why is it so bad to bet the river for value? sure, he may have a J, or even QJ, but he may also have TT. imo, to think that other players will fold TT because i bet three streets is giving too much credit to them. i see much worse calling than this.

without a read, we assume villain is tightish/solid and give benefit of doubt when he "plays" us, but dont we also assume we bet until told not to? calling my turn bet isnt reason to check a river when checked to, imo. once the J pairs, i have any Q beat, and AK that could have been a chasing idiot. i guess thats why you check behind...to see.

ok, i think i got it...the only things that call are hands that beat us? nothing worse will call the river. and all i did was invite a c/r. got it.

sometimes i have to talk/type these things through to get them to stick.

cant believe i didnt see the check behind...still.

thanks for the help again.

[Chopper]

how bout if i am oop? do i lead into him on this river? if not, what do i do to a bet when he would have been calling the whole way, and suddenly bets the river when checked to?

[BankItDrew]

I hate folding both but I do it anyways. The pot was pretty big after the river raise in hand 1, and it's only 9 more to call... doesn't look like villain is trying to push you off.

I think in hand 2 you are up against a huge draw at best.

[Ash256]

I fold both, but in hand 1 I raise a bit more pre, if he's the type to "see a flop", make it $1.50 or so to go; remember, pot size grows exponentially as we go through the streets and the chances AA is good diminish as we go. An extra 50c can make a huge amount of difference.

[Chopper]

I fold both, but in hand 1 I raise a bit more pre, if he's the type to "see a flop", make it $1.50 or so to go; remember, pot size grows exponentially as we go through the streets and the chances AA is good diminish as we go. An extra 50c can make a huge amount of difference.

yes, but varying your raises pf is one of the easiest things to spot in poker. a blind monkey can follow that one. i keep them the same. if i bump them, its a BB at a time. i used to do that, until my AA stopped getting action.

how bout oop, guys? do you lead 3 streets w/ AA? or do you check the river, allowing opponent to steal the pot w/ balls?

isnt river a bet/fold, then?

[Ash256]

I fold both, but in hand 1 I raise a bit more pre, if he's the type to "see a flop", make it $1.50 or so to go; remember, pot size grows exponentially as we go through the streets and the chances AA is good diminish as we go. An extra 50c can make a huge amount of difference.

yes, but varying your raises pf is one of the easiest things to spot in poker. a blind monkey can follow that one. i keep them the same. if i bump them, its a BB at a time. i used to do that, until my AA stopped getting action.

You're making the mistake of overestimating your opponent. If this guy is seeing a shitton of flops, he will call up to a particular amount (we need to find out what that amount is) - He's either gonna think "I have 56 (or whatever), you never know what might come out, let's see a flop", or "I have 56, this hand makes a lot of straights, let's see if I can beat AA".. Seriously, I play against these types all the time at 50NL; some of them you can charge up to 10bb to see a flop.

And anyway, you should be raising big amounts pre to isolate this guy.. If he's loose, he'll miss a lot, so let's build pots pre and take them away post.

[Miffed22001]

Both are folds, but betting river in hand 1 without a strong read at this level is horrible imho. The only hands you beat that villain can call with are played weirdly, and also require villain to put you on air (which is hard as you bet 3 streets).

Apart from that i think you played both hands fine though.

this is where i need the most work on my game currently. why is it so bad to bet the river for value? sure, he may have a J, or even QJ, but he may also have TT. imo, to think that other players will fold TT because i bet three streets is giving too much credit to them. i see much worse calling than this.

without a read, we assume villain is tightish/solid and give benefit of doubt when he "plays" us, but dont we also assume we bet until told not to? calling my turn bet isnt reason to check a river when checked to, imo. once the J pairs, i have any Q beat, and AK that could have been a chasing idiot. i guess thats why you check behind...to see.

ok, i think i got it...the only things that call are hands that beat us? nothing worse will call the river. and all i did was invite a c/r. got it.

sometimes i have to talk/type these things through to get them to stick.

cant believe i didnt see the check behind...still.

thanks for the help again.

In hand 1, consider what range of cards you represent preflop, then consider what hands will call a river bet after the turn and river card. Then decide if you should bet the river or check behind. If you had a Jack here it would be a much easier bet.

[Chopper]

I fold both, but in hand 1 I raise a bit more pre, if he's the type to "see a flop", make it $1.50 or so to go; remember, pot size grows exponentially as we go through the streets and the chances AA is good diminish as we go. An extra 50c can make a huge amount of difference.

yes, but varying your raises pf is one of the easiest things to spot in poker. a blind monkey can follow that one. i keep them the same. if i bump them, its a BB at a time. i used to do that, until my AA stopped getting action.

You're making the mistake of overestimating your opponent. If this guy is seeing a shitton of flops, he will call up to a particular amount (we need to find out what that amount is) - He's either gonna think "I have 56 (or whatever), you never know what might come out, let's see a flop", or "I have 56, this hand makes a lot of straights, let's see if I can beat AA".. Seriously, I play against these types all the time at 50NL; some of them you can charge up to 10bb to see a flop.

And anyway, you should be raising big amounts pre to isolate this guy.. If he's loose, he'll miss a lot, so let's build pots pre and take them away post.

i am not so much concerned about this guy seeing my raises varying in size. i get that he wouldnt notice, but others at the table may. and its them i want to keep in the dark, too.

[Ash256]

I fold both, but in hand 1 I raise a bit more pre, if he's the type to "see a flop", make it $1.50 or so to go; remember, pot size grows exponentially as we go through the streets and the chances AA is good diminish as we go. An extra 50c can make a huge amount of difference.

yes, but varying your raises pf is one of the easiest things to spot in poker. a blind monkey can follow that one. i keep them the same. if i bump them, its a BB at a time. i used to do that, until my AA stopped getting action.

You're making the mistake of overestimating your opponent. If this guy is seeing a shitton of flops, he will call up to a particular amount (we need to find out what that amount is) - He's either gonna think "I have 56 (or whatever), you never know what might come out, let's see a flop", or "I have 56, this hand makes a lot of straights, let's see if I can beat AA".. Seriously, I play against these types all the time at 50NL; some of them you can charge up to 10bb to see a flop.

And anyway, you should be raising big amounts pre to isolate this guy.. If he's loose, he'll miss a lot, so let's build pots pre and take them away post.

i am not so much concerned about this guy seeing my raises varying in size. i get that he wouldnt notice, but others at the table may. and its them i want to keep in the dark, too.

Then just raise big to isolate the fish anytime you need to and raise your normal amount vs. the rest of the table.

Seriously, what do your opponents gain by seeing you showdown AA having raised big pre if vs. them you never ever raise big?

[Chopper]

Both are folds, but betting river in hand 1 without a strong read at this level is horrible imho. The only hands you beat that villain can call with are played weirdly, and also require villain to put you on air (which is hard as you bet 3 streets).

Apart from that i think you played both hands fine though.

this is where i need the most work on my game currently. why is it so bad to bet the river for value? sure, he may have a J, or even QJ, but he may also have TT. imo, to think that other players will fold TT because i bet three streets is giving too much credit to them. i see much worse calling than this.

without a read, we assume villain is tightish/solid and give benefit of doubt when he "plays" us, but dont we also assume we bet until told not to? calling my turn bet isnt reason to check a river when checked to, imo. once the J pairs, i have any Q beat, and AK that could have been a chasing idiot. i guess thats why you check behind...to see.

ok, i think i got it...the only things that call are hands that beat us? nothing worse will call the river. and all i did was invite a c/r. got it.

sometimes i have to talk/type these things through to get them to stick.

cant believe i didnt see the check behind...still.

thanks for the help again.

In hand 1, consider what range of cards you represent preflop, then consider what hands will call a river bet after the turn and river card. Then decide if you should bet the river or check behind. If you had a Jack here it would be a much easier bet.

allright. so pre flop, my raise suggests pp, big broadways, maybe sc's, gappers. i'm on the button, so, its wide. flop, i bet out 2/3. meaning...cbet, TPTK, overpair, flushdraw, set. he calls, meaning...he wants to see more with flushdraw, TP, 9T, overpair, set. turn, i bet again 2/3. meaning, prolly no draw, overpair, TPGK, set, QJ. he calls, meaning...9T got there (but would have most likely raised due to flush draw or higher str8 draw), QJ, TP, flush draw. river pairs board, he checks again...i think...flush missed and wont call, QJ or any other J beats me and will raise (but would they c/r? yes, because they have no reason to think i wont lead again. but would they be greedy and risk a check behind? maybe. well, i can get away from that if i lead), other sets that boated up. gee, about the only thing that calls a bet from me, has me crushed.

i bet anyway because i was sold on value from the beginning, my mistake.

tell me if the thoughts are right? too wide/narrow?

my thing is: missed flushes that bluff lead out here. they dont c/r. i was never getting a call from a lesser hand, i guess...maybe KQ, but i dont see him lasting this long, unless he's really stupid. i may have caught the situation and checked behind if it ever entered my mind (i'm trying to get better at picking up these situations), but it didnt. i was still thinking worse would call....i just didnt stop to think that there wasnt worse out there that would call that scary-ass board.

[Chopper]

I fold both, but in hand 1 I raise a bit more pre, if he's the type to "see a flop", make it $1.50 or so to go; remember, pot size grows exponentially as we go through the streets and the chances AA is good diminish as we go. An extra 50c can make a huge amount of difference.

yes, but varying your raises pf is one of the easiest things to spot in poker. a blind monkey can follow that one. i keep them the same. if i bump them, its a BB at a time. i used to do that, until my AA stopped getting action.

You're making the mistake of overestimating your opponent. If this guy is seeing a shitton of flops, he will call up to a particular amount (we need to find out what that amount is) - He's either gonna think "I have 56 (or whatever), you never know what might come out, let's see a flop", or "I have 56, this hand makes a lot of straights, let's see if I can beat AA".. Seriously, I play against these types all the time at 50NL; some of them you can charge up to 10bb to see a flop.

And anyway, you should be raising big amounts pre to isolate this guy.. If he's loose, he'll miss a lot, so let's build pots pre and take them away post.

i am not so much concerned about this guy seeing my raises varying in size. i get that he wouldnt notice, but others at the table may. and its them i want to keep in the dark, too.

Then just raise big to isolate the fish anytime you need to and raise your normal amount vs. the rest of the table.

Seriously, what do your opponents gain by seeing you showdown AA having raised big pre if vs. them you never ever raise big?

i'm trying to see the point in upping your raise amounts, but i just cant at the expense of tipping my hand. what good does it do if opponents see you raise it up big? you are telling them that you have AA the next time you do it. unless you use big raises to steal blinds(which means you need to be successful even more often to break even), i dont see the benefit. keep trying to help me, but i dont know if timing is right for me to see this one yet.

[nickthefool]

If you were OOP in hand 1 assuming you bet flop and turn and villain flat called, check river. I get the feeling villain (assuming at least decentish) would normally check behind without trips or better, but i probably still call something like 1/2-2/3 pot because i'm a fish (i think) and hope he has a missed draw. Curiosity gets the better of me too often, it's probably one of my biggest leaks.

Re: raising more preflop

I'd very rarely do this unless you have a retarded calling station at the table. Essentially it's a read-based play, same reason you would sometimes overbet the pot on flop with a set against certain people or something.

[Ash256]

I'm posting seperately to prevent a quotebomb, what I mean is that we raise big vs. the guys with big VPIPs because we can isolate them and they suck.. we still make standard constant raise sizes vs. the people who know what they're doing.

[Miffed22001]

Both are folds, but betting river in hand 1 without a strong read at this level is horrible imho. The only hands you beat that villain can call with are played weirdly, and also require villain to put you on air (which is hard as you bet 3 streets).

Apart from that i think you played both hands fine though.

this is where i need the most work on my game currently. why is it so bad to bet the river for value? sure, he may have a J, or even QJ, but he may also have TT. imo, to think that other players will fold TT because i bet three streets is giving too much credit to them. i see much worse calling than this.

without a read, we assume villain is tightish/solid and give benefit of doubt when he "plays" us, but dont we also assume we bet until told not to? calling my turn bet isnt reason to check a river when checked to, imo. once the J pairs, i have any Q beat, and AK that could have been a chasing idiot. i guess thats why you check behind...to see.

ok, i think i got it...the only things that call are hands that beat us? nothing worse will call the river. and all i did was invite a c/r. got it.

sometimes i have to talk/type these things through to get them to stick.

cant believe i didnt see the check behind...still.

thanks for the help again.

In hand 1, consider what range of cards you represent preflop, then consider what hands will call a river bet after the turn and river card. Then decide if you should bet the river or check behind. If you had a Jack here it would be a much easier bet.

allright. so pre flop, my raise suggests pp, big broadways, maybe sc's, gappers. i'm on the button, so, its wide. flop, i bet out 2/3. meaning...cbet, TPTK, overpair, flushdraw, set. he calls, meaning...he wants to see more with flushdraw, TP, 9T, overpair, set. turn, i bet again 2/3. meaning, prolly no draw, overpair, TPGK, set, QJ. he calls, meaning...9T got there (but would have most likely raised due to flush draw or higher str8 draw), QJ, TP, flush draw. river pairs board, he checks again...i think...flush missed and wont call, QJ or any other J beats me and will raise (but would they c/r? yes, because they have no reason to think i wont lead again. but would they be greedy and risk a check behind? maybe. well, i can get away from that if i lead), other sets that boated up. gee, about the only thing that calls a bet from me, has me crushed.

i bet anyway because i was sold on value from the beginning, my mistake.

tell me if the thoughts are right? too wide/narrow?

my thing is: missed flushes that bluff lead out here. they dont c/r. i was never getting a call from a lesser hand, i guess...maybe KQ, but i dont see him lasting this long, unless he's really stupid. i may have caught the situation and checked behind if it ever entered my mind (i'm trying to get better at picking up these situations), but it didnt. i was still thinking worse would call....i just didnt stop to think that there wasnt worse out there that would call that scary-ass board.

While we'd always like to stack off with AA or be able to pot push the river for value versus a tp/tk hand, sometimes bet/bet/check is a good enough line for value.

[Chopper]

ash,

i agree with what you are saying. in fact i was doing it last night. i sat to the left of a true caller in every sense of the definition. and isolated him with big raises every time i needed him to myself. if he folded in front of me, and i still wanted to play the hand, i went normal because everyone else saw that the caller wasnt in the hand. so, in that sense, i guess i see what you are saying now...thanks for your patience.

btw, whats wrong with the quote bombs?


nick,

i gotta tell ya, imo the second you check that river, you invite one hell of a bet in your face. it really doesnt matter the opponent, except the most passive. lots are looking for spots to bluff and this would present one great opportunity. how could you call a big psb here? i dont see a bluff coming in a half pot bet...you could maybe call the small bet but, how could you call the bluff...even if you are fairly sure it is one?