Ring vs Tournament games and learning

[snuggleguts]

First, thanks to all of the people that post here to help noobs. Ive learned a tremendous amount.

Here's the situation. I've been playing holdem for about 2 weeks on one of the large on-line sites. I'm playing for money. I'm strictly small time.

I bank rolled $50 and im currently at $60. I play maybe 4 hours per day.
I consider myself novice at this point. Just scratching the surface of pot odds, outs, etc.

So, im doing "OK" for a noob i think but im starting to see a pattern. I make it to the final table about 1 in 4 games. 75% of final tables i finish in the money but ive never won a table.

It got me thinking last night.....am i making a mistake playing only tournament format? My initial thought was for $1.25 i could see a LOT of hands with very low risk to my bankroll while playing people that are actually making an effort. But now im affraid i may be missing some valuable lessons in ring games.

I really want to learn this game well. I absolutley do not want to go broke so im playing within my means and going very slow.

What would be the recomendation from some of you that have been playing for an extended period with success?

Where is the real money to be made? Ring games or tournaments? Both?

Are there things i cant learn from MTT's that i will be deficient in when i sit at a cash table?

thanks for the help

snuggle

[biondino]

It got me thinking last night.....am i making a mistake playing only tournament format? My initial thought was for $1.25 i could see a LOT of hands with very low risk to my bankroll while playing people that are actually making an effort.

Your initial thought is spot on, though to be honest, the play in these tournaments isn't likely to teach you much, beyond discipline, until the bubble and beyond as there are so many truly bad players who are limping, gambling, you name it. But it's still better than play money.

If you enjoy the MTT format, then by all means keep playing it. You're doing well, you're playing within your roll, and you're seeing lots of hands. This is all great. But you are certainly able to diversify, into SNGs and cash games, as long as you a) stay within your roll and b) recognise that they are different disciplines and you can't just expect your skills to transfer seamlessly (though, of course, there are a lot of things that they have in common - you can never go wrong learning about pot odds, implied odds, fold equity, position etc. because they'll be relevant whatever game you play).

The way you need to think of poker at the moment is that you are a beginner, learning the fundamentals. So you don't need a big roll, and you shouldn't focus on earning more - any profit you make at this stage is a bonus. Just play tight, disciplined, poker by the book, and spend at least half your time reading and discussing as well as playing.

Are there things i cant learn from MTT's that i will be deficient in when i sit at a cash table?

Yes, there are. Cash games are deep-stacked poker, where you can safely put all your money in when you're 52% to win and know that you're making the right decision (in tourney play, it is sometimes more important to maintain your stack than make marginally +EV plays). Tourney play, after the opening forays, is shallow-stacked, where pushing all-in is a far more utilised tactic, where chasing draws is almost always bad play, where hands like top pair weak kicker are often enough to put your life on the line with. So they involve different skills, and if you try to play MTT tactics in a cash game you will give up a lot of value and almost certainly end up busto.

Where is the real money to be made? Ring games or tournaments? Both?

Yes, both. It seems to be received wisdom that cash games give you a greater chance of making big money, but obviously if you consistently beat tourneys and SNGs, you will also grow your roll. I think it's an admirable ambition to be comfortable in all forms of the game (or at least all forms of no-limit hold'em), and as you learn each you can figure out which you're best at and/or most naturally drawn to.

But, it should be said, at this stage of your career you mustn't focus on the monetary reward. You know that if you learn to destroy the game, you will make money; but don't try to run before you can walk.

[snuggleguts]

thank you for the response.

It was very helpful and I shall now re-shape my plan slightly.

[Chopper]

hey, snugs, welcome aboard.

i would stay with the tourneys, but learn to mix in some cash, too. both have their pluses and minuses, and will help your overall game improve faster, in my opinion (imo).

just make sure of one thing...stay within your bankroll!! there are some great stickies here to help you determine gameplans/strategies to become successful in whichever discipline you should choose. and stickies also to help you determine which levels you should be playing...bankroll management. however, it sounds like you may have already read some of these.

trick to cash games...dont get impatient, and continue to wait for your spots...the blinds dont go up, and you dont need to get in a hurry.

oh, and post some hands in our forums. just copy/paste out of wherever you have them stored...run them through the converter here, and copy them into a thread...with your thoughts/reads.

dont just post one, and say, "how'd i do?" we want as much info as possible to help determine your thought process, etc. many players here are much better to give advice than i, but that oughta get you started.

have fun.

[MagyarSHU]

Hello and welcome to the forums. Good to hear you're practicing good bankroll managemnt. Just keep playing patiently, and it should continue to grow. I figure I'll take a stab at your questions since I too started with a $50 roll back in September...

Where is the real money to be made? Ring games or tournaments? Both?

Biondino's answer was right on target. It depends on what you're better at. There are players out there who are great at one and can't play the other. Find which one you're more comfortable with and build from there.

Are there things i cant learn from MTT's that i will be deficient in when i sit at a cash table?

Tournies are a great place to learn about starting hand discipline and proper preflop play. You'll also learn to vary your play according to your stack size in relation to the blinds (Harrington's M). What tournies may lack relative to cash games is learning correct post flop play. When/why should you raise, fold or call(usually wrong)? You'll see alot more maneuvering post flop in cash games.

What would be the recomendation from some of you that have been playing for an extended period with success?

I don't know if 9 months counts as 'extended' , but I believe what you're doing now is a great start off point. If you enjoy the tournament play style, then SnGs could be a natural fit for you once you grow your roll a bit more(at least on PS, the lowest ones are $5.50 buy-ins).

Another idea is to play some micro limit cash games. If you're not comfortable playing deep stacked yet, buy-in shallow(~20xBB). You can always add more chips, but you can never take them off the table. Some may say this is a disadvantage(and it is for skilled players because it limits their profits), but it forces newer players to play correctly(TAGG) and avoid gambling on long-shot draws. Sure, you may not win as much, but if you also won't make as many costly mistakes.

Lastly, if you're really serious about getting better, READ(again, as Biondino mentions)! These forums are a great learning tool, but books are the bedrock to a forum's foundation(mmm alliteration). The stickies at the top offer many snippets of wisdom, but if you read through some books, you'll know why they hold true. Harrington on Hold'em volumes 1-3 are an excellent place to start. If you're skittish about the price, consider it as an investment. If you soak in all the information, it will pay itself off before you know it. Once you've worked your way through them, Slansky is another good author. I only have a few books so far, but they have been invaluable information-wise.