Betting in micro stakes

[bef99hwk]

I've noticed when playing 25nl that if I check the turn for pot control, I am getting potted against. For instance, if I have top pair, weak kicker from being in the SB or such that the guy could be on a draw but when you check, you instantly get bet against. My hand isn't that strong to be calling the bet but I don't always think they have it. I've also experimented with just betting .75 or so on every street and that way I can see all cards or they eventually fold. Is this a good tactic for low limits?

[bjsaust]

I started saving a lot of money when I just decided to accept they have it in that scenario.

Theres a discussion in the NL Strategy forum on a similar topic, putting out low bets to entice a call rather than face a larger bet if you check. I'm not a fan of small bets personally. I either put in a decent bet or I check.

[LimpinAintEZ]

anyone worth their shirt will see through such small bets over and over and just pop you anytime you come out with that kinda bet - I do it all the time even when im strictly stealing - you want to be either betting or folding (or calling when your drawing/slow playing) - In the SB you are in terrible position, so unless you flop a nice hand there don't worry about getting bluffed every now and then - Lead out with a decent flop bet and try to take down the pot then - if you don't improve or someone is showing a lot of strength, just let it go -

most 25NL players are pretty much betting their cards - if they are coming over the top of you consistently, then look them up once in awhile, but mostly just play in good position against them...

for what its worth, I have lost many buy ins trying to look people up when i thought they were just putting moves on me - its not worth it -

you should learn what the table is betting if you aren't sure how much to bet thoguh...1/2 a Pot sized bet on the turn isn't terribly expensive but works a lot of the time if opp. doesn't have much - but if the table is folding to $1 bets then use that for your info bets - just remember that most of the time you are behind when they come over you...unless you see the same guy doing it over and over - and those are easy to spot and look up -

[swiggidy]

I think you're mis-understanding a concept. Checking the turn for "pot control" is done with a good hand (TPTK) that is unlikely to be out-drawn (i.e. no flush draw or obvious straight draws), also known as WA/WB situations.

If you're betting TPNK OOP on the flop it should be because you think everyone will fold. If they call you need some idea of what they are holding or you need to just give up.

If you are OOP you can't check for pot control because you don't know what the villain is going to do. Maybe villain is potting it thinking that you will fold since you checked and showed weakness. Even the micro-stakes players understand concepts like this now.

Some options:
Don't play TPNK type hands from the SB without reads, the reverse implied odds may be worse than loosing 0.5bb.

Check the flop with the intention of folding to a bet. If it does get checked around bet a non-scary turn. Villains will often think you paired the turn card (i.e. you have A6, flop is AJ5, turn is a 9, they will call down with a J thinking you paired your 9).

Bet the flop, check the turn with better hands than TPNK that you can either bet out on the river, or c/r on the turn.

[Chopper]

I've noticed when playing 25nl that if I check the turn for pot control, I am getting potted against. For instance, if I have top pair, weak kicker from being in the SB or such that the guy could be on a draw but when you check, you instantly get bet against. My hand isn't that strong to be calling the bet but I don't always think they have it. I've also experimented with just betting .75 or so on every street and that way I can see all cards or they eventually fold. Is this a good tactic for low limits?

this is what i used to notice up at 100NL, but now i am starting to find it at lower levels, too.

first, they are not necessarily bluffing...they are ABUSING POSITION on you.

second, if you feel you have them beat, a 3bet will do the trick to define the hand. against these opponents, you have to raise your aggression to the "next level" to accomplish the same thing. yes, more expensive, but thats poker against thinkers. your decisions on when to do it, and against who, will determine your win rate. my advice, avoid these guys until you can handle them.

third, you are showing weakness by checking. good for them for punishing your check. but, wait...you can use this against them, too. wait until you flop 2 pair or a set...and set them up. c/r them!! do that once or twice and you can check your misses into them all day...at the 25 level.

fourth, the bet you are making (to avoid showing weakness) is actually STILL SHOWING WEAKNESS if you do it consistently. any villain worth his salt (which is giving 25 players a bit too much credit) will continue punishing you in spite of your "blocking bet." and he should. again, use it against them!!

i used to get into the same situations all the friggin' time. and i will now tighten up, 3bet, c/r, or leave the table. all are viable solutions to the problem, but again, you need to MIX IT UP. stay predictable, and stay a weak-tight player...you will stay broke!

hope that helped.

[jyms]

I think to make it simple and basic, you need to remember, When out of position (OOP) you don't get to use pot control. You are out of position either check/call his bets or fold to the aggression. What chopper says is true, if you use the chek/raise once in a while you may get the odd player to check behind for fear of the raise, but I really think at $25NL most have no memory, and will blindly lead out the next time.

Keep in mind though, when in position, if you check behind on the turn for pot control, you basically need to call most reasonable bets on the river. A lot of players view this as weakness, and will stab at the pot. Just don't pay off the draws that hit if they are checking the turn to you. And always try to put them on a hand before calling that bet.

[bef99hwk]

this is why this site is the greatest there is....ppl taking the time to make well informed posts for newbies...thank you all!

[aokrongly]

...

[bigslikk]

Would someone help me with this relevant hand from a donkstakes MTT?

Hero (~7k)
Villain (~18k)
Blinds are 200/400
10 handed, donkstakes MTT

Hero is dealt


Preflop:
Villain calls 400 from LP1 (3rd seat from button), Hero calls 400 from CO (1 from button), Button calls, BB checks

Flop (1800)

BB checks, Villain checks, Hero bets 800, Button folds, BB folds, Villain calls.

Turn (3400)

Villain checks, Hero checks

River (3400)

Villain bets 2000, Hero ???

[jyms]

Yea....Not pretty. Don't ever call preflop with an M of under 10 again. If you haven't read HOH 1 and 2, you have no reason to be playing tournaments. Blinds are 200+400=600 per orbit. you have 5K, about 8 or less orbits depending on whether they go up or not. You need to get at least the blinds once an orbit. By just calling preflop you let any two cards play. This guy has AQ, AK,Q5, QJ, JJ, 44 or T4, you have no idea. Is he beting the Q or the 4. When you bet 800 into a 1400 pot ( your numbers are wrong) he knows you don't have a Q. Any stack your size is looking to double thru the big stack or end it right there. You now have 1/4 of your stack in the middle and have no idea what to do. Not a good situation. All in on the flop. Take it down. If you fold you have 3800 left=M of 6. Push/fold time.

[aokrongly]

...

[bigslikk]

Hero folded, villain showed KJo. Yup that's checking the turn for you @ the donkstakes. I think "pot control"- which has cost me much money in holdem since ive been duped by it- is overused by players playing scared (like me sometimes)

You're up against a aggrodonk who'll overbet at the slightest sign of weakness, or else against a loose-passive nit who "cleverly" slowplays shlt as bad as top pair. Trouble is that there are no "regulars" (esp. at MTT) and it's hard to decipher between the two. Vs. the common station-nit, you want might want to check the turn (wb / wa), against an aggro donk, well, see above.

BTW concerning pushing with 66. Might be good, but it feels so wrong. People at these small-buy MTTs are DESPERATE for chips once the blinds get high (and their stacks shallow) and so allin battles usually entail multiple callers (also, I think some idiots are of the philosphy "look how much is in the pot! i should call with ATC allin preflop" or "sooted ace-two! im in". Thus, allin's usually result in 66 v. 8T v JQ v A7s... and though i'm gettin 4:1, it would take the hand of god to deliver me from the flop, turn, and river cards.

I can't fold 66 though; a call (and CERTAIN multiway pot) give's good set-hunting odds (think of how likely multiple donks are in stacking off, given the proper pressure) to nail satan's third six. I'm sure it's at or above the requsite 8:1.

Yes I did make the blunder of betting without the set. Whatever. I need to work on doing less "strategic checking" (weak play).

[Chopper]

aok, welcome back. i doubt you've gone away, i just havent seen a post by you in a looooong time.

slikk, aok said it already in his first response...GET IN OR GET OUT. and that applies to your situation in that hand.

and, btw, if you cant fold 66 with a shortish stack OR steal a blind with it when someone open-limps in front of you at this stage of a tourney...you need to do a "checkup from the neckup." you were asking for a suckout and to sit on the rail. weak pp's have very little "set value" in the late stages of tourneys.. they become coin flips...or dominated by anything that will call your raise. to get any set value, you needed to be a lot deeper with YOUR stack.

and, if you were certain it would go multi-way with a push, too...arent your "set hunting" odds still great...therefore better than just calling pf? would you rather get 4:1 on $5 or the same 4:1 on $100?