A2 all in - B&M

[JanusVV]

Hello there,

I have been lurking around on the forums for a rather long time now. Registered a while back and finally figured i'd make the big step and post something.

My question is the following :

I was playing in a Brick & Mortar FO the other day. Buy in 35 bucks, 36 players, top 5 are itm.

Blinds increase every 15 minutes.

We are down to 11 players, meaning two short handed tables. I have an M of 8, and the average M is around 15. CO & CO+1 folds. On to me with button & blinds behind me. Their M's range from 9 to 12, and they all are pretty solid tight players. My table image is tight. ( Havent caught a hand since i got to this table ~ 3 orbits)

I look down at A2 os and my thinking is the following :
1 My table image = tight
2 My chip count = ok compared to the rest. Im the short stack, but still a danger.
3 I have an Ace with no kicker. Against 6 cards (3 players) the chance on being dominated is possible, but not huge.
4 If i push, ill probably get folds.

So as you can guess i made the push and got called by SB with A9. I caught my 2 and he caught his 9. Best hand won, im out.

But my question is what did i miss in my thinking process ? Or is it just that i made a mistake at 3 and thus also 4?

I'd love to hear from you guys!

thanks,
Janus

[GatorJH]

First of all, let me be the first to welcome you to the posting world (versus the lurking world) of FTR.

Personally, I think your thought process was flawed with the 2 in your hand. If you get called by one of the 3 people behind you that 2 in your hand is pretty worthless. Yes, your M was low, but it wasn't out of line with the rest of the table. I think you still had time to wait for a better pushing hand (I would rather push with 45o than A2o).

[JanusVV]

Hey there Gator and thanks for the welcome and reply.

Do i understand correctly that you would rather push with 45 than A2 because the chance is higher that your cards are live in combination with the straight draw ?

I actually ran in to a similar situation tonight in online play, where we were down to 7 handed, my M was 5 and i was dealt A4. I threw it away tho! But sadly busted out a few orbits later.

Thanks again for the input!

cheers,
Janus

[euphoricism]

Do i understand correctly that you would rather push with 45 than A2 because the chance is higher that your cards are live in combination with the straight draw ?

Bingo

[dsmrolla06]

8 M isnt really all that low. You could have just put in a standard raise and folded to a reraise or play it postflop. Im usually not in push/fold mode until around 5 m.

[bjsaust]

I realise M is from some book, but I havnt heard the explanation for it. Can someone give a brief explanation?

[givememyleg]

Welcome to FTR, JanusVV! A few things:

1) Your table image is tight, but do they know this? The play at most B&M's is so bad that there is a high chance they would not have noticed this. You say they are solid, and I have limited B&M experience, however in the few tournaments I played in there was a time with I folded about 3 orbits in a row, picked up AA, and doubled up to ATo... he called my 3bet allin. I had him pegged as solid.
2) An M of 8 in a tournament really isn't that bad. I don't really use M very much (I'm a bb - stack kinda guy) but you don't need to push here. I prefer Gator's line here, raise 2.5x the bb and then see what happens.

I don't think I would have pushed, but defnitely raised if they were tight.

I realise M is from some book, but I havnt heard the explanation for it. Can someone give a brief explanation?

It's from Harrington on Hold'em. Stack size / SB + BB + antes. An example would be: You have a 5,000 stack chip stack, blinds are 250/500 with a 50 ante, which gives you an M of 6.25 (5000 / 800). He uses M to put your stack into different "zones" which define how you should play. I prefer just using your stack vs the size of the bb, it's easier and I'm a donk.

[JanusVV]

Thanks for the input guys!

I figure i understand what you mean now.

One question tho, what types of hands do you find suitable for pushing when you have less than 10 bb left ?

Definitely PP's & Strong Aces

KJ - TJos ?

Suited connectors ?

Asuming you figure people will call if you push, what type of hand would you push with?

[JanusVV]

I realise M is from some book, but I havnt heard the explanation for it. Can someone give a brief explanation?

Basicly i see M as the amount of orbits left before im blinded out if i continue to fold every hand. So just as givememyleg explained.

[biondino]

Hang on a sec - if you have 5000 chips, and the blinds antes are 250/500/50 as above, then doesn't your M depend on how many people are at the table? Because you pay as many antes per orbit as there are players, so if the table is 5-handed, then you are paying 250 in antes per orbit so your M is actually 5 rather than 6.25?

[JanusVV]

That is my understanding of M yes. However im not completely sure, and i dont have the book with me atm so i cant say for sure.

But i think M = Big blind + SB + Ante*players@table

So
250/500/50 = 5000/1250 = 4 @ 10 player table
250/500/50 = 5000/1000 = 5 @ 5 player table

I think this is the number to be used because this gives you an indication on how long you can sit on your chips waiting to catch some cards, but again i am not sure. Perhaps somebody more experienced can explain?

[givememyleg]

Missed that *players at table because I don't really use M. Just stick to bb/stack and you should be fiiiiiiiiiiiine.

[dsmrolla06]

Yes M changes with how many players are at the table, and if you want to get real complicated it adjusts to when theres fewer players at the table called effective M. Basically if theres 4 players left, your M is effectively 4/9s of your M at a full table. I dont really calculate my effective M tho.

As for to use bbs to stack size or M, i actually use both. If im playing sngs i usually use M since the blinds and antes are small. In mtts i use M because of higher blinds and antes.

[JanusVV]

So what type of hands do you guys push with when you notice that you only have about 20 - 25 hands left before you are blinded/Anted out ?

Any SC ? Any connector ? Any cards higher than 9 ? Weak Ace/King/Queen?

I usually push with any ace, any pair and Q10+. But as was pointed out at the start of this thread that is probably way too loose. I dont push with suited or connectors, but im beginning to think that it might be worth it.

Is this true, or am i making a mistake here?

[dsmrolla06]

So with 2.5 M what position is this in? Im really looking to have it folded to me and im pushing almost any two cards. If i know im going to absolutely get called i may wait a couple hands and not complete complete trash or if theres raises in front of me. When your this short you really want first in vigorish, and if im on the button or CO im pushing any two if its folded to me. Its hard to say in a vaccuum though. Just post some hands and that should help. It really comes with experience though.

[JanusVV]

Thanks for the feedback!

My thinking was along the lines of position doesnt matter much when your chips are that low, since the chance of getting called is so big. As such you should try and make sure you have the best hand when called so as to double up, and thus select a decent starting hand.

I understand the importance of position tho, since the chance of getting called is much much smaller from the button than it is from the CO.

Cheers!

[sejje]

4 If i push, ill probably get folds.

Go ahead, then.