Im being 3 bet against!!

[Da GOAT]

Ok since im at 200NL i THINK that one opp especially is 3 betting me. Ive never really being 3 bet much before at lower stakes than this.

My problem is though that I havent seen him show down any hands where he does this. I have holdings like KQ,88,AJ and cant call the 3 bet profitably or at all. He has 3 bet me with some frequency in the last few days, he could easily have good cards ( some 3 bet occured where he isnt in LP) but how do you find out what he is up too???

Are we playing AA,KK differently?? Is that the easiest way to play it. Start shoving AK,QQ though we aint to sure yet. Bend over and let him ride ye till your a little bit more sure that the numb feeling in your ass aint coz you have been sitting down all day playing poker.

Im checking coz i think im gonna have to slowplay AA and KK

EDIT: i usually PFR about 9-11% a session BTW

[Numbr2intheWorld]

I think in these situations you can do many things.

1. Keep playing with him and there will be situations where you both showdown. Figure out how he plays, what he's three-betting by just keeping standard.

2. Definitely slowplay AA or KK preflop, even QQ. Be aggressive with them once the flop comes though, but make sure he puts some money in on the flop first.

3. 4-bet weak suited Ace's sometimes, they are the best hands to 4-bet with as a bluff because they have the most equity against a range of AA-QQ/AK.

One thing to consider is that you haven't seen him showdown many hands. This may mean he's aggro but also nitty. You can probably bluff him. The best boards to bluff are K high dry boards, because they only hit AK and KK (obviously AA doesn't mind a K either).

[IowaSkinsFan]

This is your problem:
Your right, you have no idea where u stand with good holding like AJ, KQ, or 88. But you don't realize you're not thinking in you're opponents head enough. Things to think about when responding to light three betting.

1. How much loose/tight is ur preflop raising in this position? If it's BU or CO it's reasonable to think he's going wider.
2. What does your opponent think of YOU. this is probably the most important. What I learned in HU is that sometimes you just have to threebet/make a huge bluff because you've been playing really tight and opponent, if not knows, senses ur being really tight.
You have to take the drivers seat, u can't rely on your hand. Create a tight image, and once every so often push a flop on his cbet where his range consists of a lot of hands that are folding. Like i.e. opp reraises you pre and you have 54s, you call and flop comes 852, opp cbets. What do you do? push!!! opp can't call you here without at least QQ, 88, 55, or 22 unless he's seeing SD a lot in which case you just have to let him hang himself.

You have to remember the fact that at 200nl u raise to 8 pre and people are reraising you to 24+, that means that all you have to do is call 1 out of 4 times and win the pot post flop. That's one hell of a tight image IMO.

Don't go crazy and try to play back at him every time, use a tight image to your advantage. I mean if the guy is just not folding in three bet pots, you have to tighten up and let him hang himself.

OOP it gets especially tough, just don't get too out of line and figure out if he has any bet sizing flop tells or reraising tells.

[Chopper]

i think sometimes you need to take a stand against a bully and reclaim your lunch money he is stealing. you will never know what he does this with until you force a showdown.

use your tight image to gain free cards w/ flop c/raises. 4bet him light pf. i like the AXs concept. mid pp's and sc's would be fun, on occasion. but remember, HE DOESNT KNOW WHAT YOU HOLD WHEN YOU PLAY BACK, especially if you havent played at him yet. treat it like AK, and bet dry boards...maybe 2 or 3 barrel. EV in the long run? NO. but this isnt long term...just checking his holdings.

point is, you need to take a stand sometime w/o AA. you need to show HIM, and the table, that you refuse to curl up and take a nap in your sphincter (sp?) w/o the nuts.

[takesix]

4bet him like 1 in 3 times with whatever if you truly feel he's picking on you.

[Legendash]

Man Takesix's avatar really reminds me of Humphrind, what ever happened to him? Actually, were any of you here when he was?

[Miffed22001]

Man Takesix's avatar really reminds me of Humphrind, what ever happened to him? Actually, were any of you here when he was?

yes.

[Vi-Zer0Skill]

Can someone explain why A-xs has better equity against a range of
QQ-AA/A-K than Suited Connectors?

6h-7h is 37-40% against A-K0
6h-7h is 25-33% against A-A

A-xs is 27-30% against A-K0
A-xs is 12-15% against A-A

(Those percentages are "guestimates" - i am supposed to be preparing my research paper topic proposal )

So, if the percentages are wrong, just correct me. However, if they are correct but A-xs is still better, please explain what other factors are going into consideration.

[bode]

if i did this right, it looks like 67s does have a little better equity than Axs. A5s seems to have the highest equity of any of the low Axs, so thats why i picked it. A range of Axs is also included.

232,873,344 games 0.005 secs 46,574,668,800 games/sec

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 31.077% 30.88% 00.20% 71915036 455670.00 { 76s }
Hand 1: 68.923% 68.73% 00.20% 160046968 455670.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }


184,928,832 games 0.005 secs 36,985,766,400 games/sec

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 30.153% 28.99% 01.16% 53611440 2149290.00 { A5s }
Hand 1: 69.847% 68.69% 01.16% 127018812 2149290.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }


924,644,160 games 0.005 secs 184,928,832,000 games/sec

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 29.400% 28.24% 01.16% 261124908 10718502.00 { A6s-A2s }
Hand 1: 70.600% 69.44% 01.16% 642082248 10718502.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

[IowaSkinsFan]

4bet him like 1 in 3 times with whatever if you truly feel he's picking on you.

Truthfully, i dont like this because i fourbet in position rarely. He's going to have to fold a lot post flop so just play him there and push a good flop.

[Irisheyes]

Man Takesix's avatar really reminds me of Humphrind, what ever happened to him? Actually, were any of you here when he was?

me too. So confusing. I keep thinking he's back for a split second.

[Chopper]

Can someone explain why A-xs has better equity against a range of
QQ-AA/A-K than Suited Connectors?

6h-7h is 37-40% against A-K0
6h-7h is 25-33% against A-A

A-xs is 27-30% against A-K0
A-xs is 12-15% against A-A

(Those percentages are "guestimates" - i am supposed to be preparing my research paper topic proposal )

So, if the percentages are wrong, just correct me. However, if they are correct but A-xs is still better, please explain what other factors are going into consideration.

i dont do math often, and, frankly, dont care about 1/2% margins. i know. . .i know. . . i should, but i rely more on the basics of odds and instincts, which gets me flamed with crazy ideas, but i think that's part of my strength as a player. what i dont do predictably is so out there that it throws off opponents just enough to make me profitable.

that said, my reasoning in "being intrigued" by the AXs idea is that against a range of KK-, that would 3bet you, an A is a necessity in case you are up against a huge pair...just not aces. sure, big aces give you BIG problems, and when you hit the A against one, you have the backup of the flush draw. besides, if you go into it against a LAG with KQ, you may win high card when you both miss. lots of things can go right accidentally for you with an A in your hand..and being soooted makes it a touch better. i dont care to understand the equity percentages (other than to see who actually has it), and the small (in relative terms) number of times you will come into this situation, i dont think it matters much. you are more sending a message of "dont F with me," but the AXs gives you a backup. same with sc's and small pairs, but you dont scare KK into submission with 67s or 33 now do you? however, when the A flops and you fire a bet into QQ or KK, you got something. and how pissed is your villain when you show him you cracked his KK with A4s?

..and THAT said, dont overdo it!! AXs is no power hand that you will be profitable with against the 3betting range of anyone but the biggest of donkeys.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

Can someone explain why A-xs has better equity against a range of
QQ-AA/A-K than Suited Connectors?

6h-7h is 37-40% against A-K0
6h-7h is 25-33% against A-A

A-xs is 27-30% against A-K0
A-xs is 12-15% against A-A

(Those percentages are "guestimates" - i am supposed to be preparing my research paper topic proposal )

So, if the percentages are wrong, just correct me. However, if they are correct but A-xs is still better, please explain what other factors are going into consideration.

Hmmm, i'm not sure. My friend who is a mid-stakes NL pro said that Axs are the best hands to do it with. I think it's because the calling range of a 4-bet is weighted more heavily towards AA and KK, and less likely QQ and AK.

[Da GOAT]

thanks alot for the great input guys. i sadly dont have much time to reply at the moment coz of work and college. So ill have thought out reply here when i get a chance.

[Chopper]

mass,

i'm not sure i understand that last one. if the 4betting range of opponent is KK/AA, and not QQ/AK, then there is no way AXs is a good hand to take with you into that fight. what's the equity of AXs v. AA? 10%? and when the A flops? <5%?

imo, better to call the first raise, but if you would like to 3bet, to better define the raise, i fold AXs to any 4bet. if he calls my 3bet, i may end up liking my hand, but i fold to a push or 4bet EVERYTIME.

whereas i may call a push or 4bet with <QQ/AK depending on my read.

[Galapogos]

Also consider making 3bbs raises preflop instead of 4bbs.

[The Izebox]

sit to his left or not at all. Then observe how he three bets against other people

[Rondavu]

I don't want to be the bad guy here, but you shouldn't be playing 200NL if you don't know how to handle yourself in 3-bet situations. This is something that is "in the playbook" so to speak for someone who plans to beat this level.

Play 100NL 6-max for a while, and get comfortable with being pounded by 3-bets, so you can learn how to counter them. 100NL is a little easier in these situations, and it happens less often.

The basic idea is that you profit in these spots through tight reads and precise equity moves. You're going to be hammered by 3-bets at 200NL like no tomorrow, so learn the hard way or move down to learn some things first.

[IowaSkinsFan]

I don't want to be the bad guy here, but you shouldn't be playing 200NL if you don't know how to handle yourself in 3-bet situations.

There are barely any light three bettors at 200nl on stars, so this point is kinda moot. 100nl actually had lighter threebetting.

[Da GOAT]

ill just qoute and post so its easy for me to follow;

I think in these situations you can do many things.

1. Keep playing with him and there will be situations where you both showdown. Figure out how he plays, what he's three-betting by just keeping standard.

i have checked PT constantly and opp stats are 14/8 at 200NL and i aint seem him 3 bet any others or just not with much frequency. Another point for me NOT being 3 bet light but I seem to feel he may be focusing on me a little. Annoying thing is he is so tight that he may be very very basic player. Wouldnt a guy with alot more stats be more prone to these moves.

2. Definitely slowplay AA or KK preflop, even QQ. Be aggressive with them once the flop comes though, but make sure he puts some money in on the flop first.

yeah flop c/r or the like, im not gonna slowplay till river

3. 4-bet weak suited Ace's sometimes, they are the best hands to 4-bet with as a bluff because they have the most equity against a range of AA-QQ/AK.

dunno but its discussed above, wouldngt mind seeing more discussion on this

One thing to consider is that you haven't seen him showdown many hands. This may mean he's aggro but also nitty. You can probably bluff him. The best boards to bluff are K high dry boards, because they only hit AK and KK (obviously AA doesn't mind a K either).

[Da GOAT]

This is your problem:
Your right, you have no idea where u stand with good holding like AJ, KQ, or 88. But you don't realize you're not thinking in you're opponents head enough. Things to think about when responding to light three betting.

1. How much loose/tight is ur preflop raising in this position? If it's BU or CO it's reasonable to think he's going wider.

more like the positions between EP and MP are being 3 bet

2. What does your opponent think of YOU. this is probably the most important. What I learned in HU is that sometimes you just have to threebet/make a huge bluff because you've been playing really tight and opponent, if not knows, senses ur being really tight.
You have to take the drivers seat, u can't rely on your hand. Create a tight image, and once every so often push a flop on his cbet where his range consists of a lot of hands that are folding. Like i.e. opp reraises you pre and you have 54s, you call and flop comes 852, opp cbets. What do you do? push!!! opp can't call you here without at least QQ, 88, 55, or 22 unless he's seeing SD a lot in which case you just have to let him hang himself.

makes alot of sense but i do tend to have the good when shoving flops or RRing. maybe something to work on maybe.

You have to remember the fact that at 200nl u raise to 8 pre and people are reraising you to 24+, that means that all you have to do is call 1 out of 4 times and win the pot post flop. That's one hell of a tight image IMO.

i dont really think that way, more apt to thinking about setting. please just explain what your trying to say here exactly.


Don't go crazy and try to play back at him every time, use a tight image to your advantage. I mean if the guy is just not folding in three bet pots, you have to tighten up and let him hang himself.

OOP it gets especially tough, just don't get too out of line and figure out if he has any bet sizing flop tells or reraising tells.

[Da GOAT]

I don't want to be the bad guy here, but you shouldn't be playing 200NL if you don't know how to handle yourself in 3-bet situations. This is something that is "in the playbook" so to speak for someone who plans to beat this level.

Play 100NL 6-max for a while, and get comfortable with being pounded by 3-bets, so you can learn how to counter them. 100NL is a little easier in these situations, and it happens less often.

The basic idea is that you profit in these spots through tight reads and precise equity moves. You're going to be hammered by 3-bets at 200NL like no tomorrow, so learn the hard way or move down to learn some things first.

HU for stacks

3 betting at 200Nl as OSF said isnt often. 3 betting light is rarer. alot of ppl still just call 4xBB with QQ and AK.

Betting 3xBB instead of 4xBB meh ive switched around 3.5xBB-4xBB depending but 3xBB is a bit too low esp. since 3 betting isnt that often

[ieatp1gs]

Who's the bastard that caused you so much trouble? screenname?

[IowaSkinsFan]

Okay Dagoat:

1st point. If you're being threebet from EP and MP and it's light, just don't play back until you have a good hand, or play back rarely. You don't raise enough hands from those positions to really have to play back much. Anyone who's light three betting MP and EP a lot is retarded most likely.

2nd point. Yeah, if you always have the goods when you shove start shoving air on occasion versus a favorable opponents range. the best part: Even if they call, know it was bad since you are shoving so little and beating most of their range (this is most likely the case).

3rd point. I'm just saying that in EV terms you don't have to call threebets much.

[Irisheyes]

Who's the bastard that caused you so much trouble? screenname?

Hhahaha well played

[Vi-Zer0Skill]

Massimo Wrote:

Hmmm, i'm not sure. My friend who is a mid-stakes NL pro said that Axs are the best hands to do it with. I think it's because the calling range of a 4-bet is weighted more heavily towards AA and KK, and less likely QQ and AK.

Good point.

[Vi-Zer0Skill]

First, A-5s (going on Bode-ists analysis that this hand has the highest equity of the suited aces against A-K/Q-Q+) is ~4% better than 6-7s, when playing against A-A/K-K, the likely calling range of a 4bet raise.

Second, how profitable is 4betting, even against a light 3better? I mean, they would have to be 3betting really light to make 4betting +EV, wouldn't they?


Assuming $1/$2 Blinds:

Hero raises to $7, villan raises to $24, Hero raises to $72...

You would be risking $48 to win a pot of $33. Not bad, if it will work 3 times out of 4 (($33 x 3) > ($48 x 1). But, villan will be getting reasonable pot odds (~1.7 : 1), so i doubt he would fold 75% of the time. Even if he figured you were only 4betting K-K+, he would probably call this raise with hands like suited connectors and try to stack you on the flop.

Raising more PF to cut down on villans pot odds only pot commits preflop you the times he has K-K+. Plus, once he figured out you were 4betting him lightly, he would probably start to shove A-K, 10-10+ preflop.

And, i think you could only 4bet raise once every three to four 3bets by villan in order to keep your play deceptive. Since that would probably equal 1x every 120-140 hands, it wouldn't be impossible that you were indeed holding K-K+ enough of the time to make him playing back at you -EV. I don't think i would 4bet an unknown, since i would prefer to know an opponents 3bet frequency before i started to 4bet them.

4betting against 3betters preflop would be one tool in an arsenal of "weapons" to counter with. I like trying to take the pot away on the flop, but i would like to see some HH's where that line was used against a 3bet preflop.

Before any hand histories are posted, i am predicting that most lines are c/c flop if OOP, and leading the turn. And, if IP, c/r flop or c/c flop c/r turn.

The EV analysis of countering a preflop light 3better postflop would be long and difficult, since there are a lot of "standard" flops that play out. I might spend some time running various postflop lines and seeing which ones turn out to be the best for certain board textures tomorrow.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

You shouldn't be doing anything here so frequently that he's going to "figure out" you are 4-betting him lightly. And if we are 4-betting a Axs then we are either pushing it or making a big enough raise that we have to call a push. 4-betting then folding is such a leak.

Adjust depending on what you show down. If you show down 4-betting an Axs, 4-bet AA or KK. If you show down calling a 3-bet with AA or KK, 4-bet them instead.