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Understanding A-K

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  1. #1

    Default Understanding A-K

    A-K is one of the best starting hands in NL Hold'em. But it is much more difficult to play than K-K and A-A preflop. Deciding whether to raise/call/fold with A-K is an important concept to understand, one i needed to put in writing for myself though i hope others find it useful as well.

    In all of the following situations, assume:
    Opponents 3bet range: J-J+/A-Q
    100x BB stacks

    First situation: standard preflop raise(3xBB)

    You should usually reraise in this spot. It prevents weaker hands from calling behind you, which would make your hand more difficult to play on the flop. It also gives you a chance to find out if UTG was raising with a strong hand, since he would probably raise again with K-K/A-A/A-K. Finally, being the last one to raise preflop is almost always the best way to take a hand to the flop. This is because if you do get called you can then c-bet the flop, allowing you to oftentimes take the pot down without having to flop a good hand.

    Second situation: standard preflop raise(3xBB) with 1-2 callers.

    Raising is even better in this spot than in the first scenario. You are trying to limit the number of players who go to the flop, since the more players there are in the pot the harder it is to win the pot through a c-bet/having the best hand. Plus, the pot size is now bigger, meaning that there is more incentive to try to win before the flop.

    Third situation: preflop raise (3xBB) followed by a reraise(12xBB).

    Calling is a bad idea in this spot. This is because when your opponent bets the flop (and you missed it) you won't know whether he has an overpair, or is c-betting with missed overcards. You will have to fold on any non Ace or King high flop, since a bluff has a low chance of succeeding due to the face you have not represented a strong hand up to this point.

    Folding is ok, since it is difficult to play this hand on the flop unless an Ace or King hits. Even then you might be facing A-A or K-K, and lose your stack on any good looking flop when you do get action.

    Raising is ok also, since you can now win the pot preflop. Plus, when you go to the flop any opponent that has stayed with you would have to be concerned that you are holding K-K/A-A. Almost all opponents will 5-bet (usually going all in) only K-K/A-A, though sometimes they will trap by just calling the 4 bet preflop. I would say that people are trapping with K-K/A-A when they just call a 4-bet probably 75% the time and the other 25% of the time they are holding Q-Q/A-K looking to see if you will push the flop (definitely a bad play, but there are some people who do it). You can fold to a push preflop, but you should bet strong on any flop if you are first to bet/ been checked to. It is your best chance to win the pot against Q-Q/A-K. Who knows, you might even get K-K to go away!

    Of the choices (raise/call/fold), i like raising the best.

    1). You have a good hand that's favored against most opponents 3-betting range.

    2). You have the opportunity to make your opponent fold a better hand than yours at some point in the hand.

    In the infrequently occuring scenario where there are three raises before you and you are holding A-K, i think you can fold and not lose a nights rest.


    Being the first to raise with A-K is a little bit different. In many cases, you will just get called by 1-2 opponents and play a flop. I am going to be analyzing the cases where you are faced with combinations of callers/raises.

    Fourth situation: You are first to enter the pot, and you raise (3xBB). An opponent reraises you (12xBB).

    I think you should usually raise in this spot. Folding is a bad idea mainly because your hand is favored against most opponents 3-betting range. Calling is bad because your opponent is probably going to bet on the flop, and you won't have enough information to decide whether he is posturing a strong hand or actually has one. Raising gives you control of the hand, allowing you to be the one making the bet on the flop without a hand.

    Fifth situation: You are first to enter the pot, and you raise (3xBB). 1-2 preflop callers, followed by a reraise(12xBB).

    I wouldn't play my A-K any differently than i would in the previous scenario.

    Sixth situation: 1-2 limpers before you. You are first to raise (3xBB). Action is folded around to the first limper, who reraises (12xBB). Second limper folds.

    This is a frustrating situation. Most players won't limp raise as a bluff (quite a poweful play, though most players don't use it), so i would say you are against Q-Q+/A-K 90% of the time in this spot. You are not favored against this range, so folding is usually going to be the best play. If you have notes on an opponent that suggest that he more than likely to be bluffing 10% of the time in this spot, you should reraise him. Most opponents will give up on a bluff facing this much strength, so you can then fold to another raise/push.

    Basically, i would reraise A-K in almost any spot. This is all i could think to write down. I hope some other people come along edit/add ideas to this post!
  2. #2
    I disagree with a lot of your post.


    3rd situation. You say that you think you will get someone to fold to your 3-bet when the pot is reraised? I don't think you are going to get BOTH of your opponents to fold here. I fold here.

    4th situation:
    What is your opponents 3-betting range? How deep are the stacks? This is really vague advice. If we are assuming deep stacks then I would give this guy a 3-betting range of TT+/AK. What exactly are you a favorite of? Also, presumably you are OOP most of the time in this spot.

    6th situation:
    Too vague again. What happened to the other limpers? Anytime you get 3-bet with AK you aren't liking life. You are probably going to have to hit to win and when you do you won't win much. Sometimes when you hit you will end up losing more money to a set(AA/KK). This is reverse implied odds.
  3. #3
    i dont really like 4 betting with AK. i can see doing it if you feel you are being 3 bet lightly by someone but against a standard 3bet range i dont really like it. i dont really do that but if it is getting you good results then idk.
  4. #4
    I 4bet AK mostly because doing so allows me to take control of betting on the flop. Against players who aren't observant/thinking, i will usually fold A-K if i am OOP or call and see if i can take it away from them with my position.

    Another good thing about 4betting A-K is that most players with 5bet/push their K-K/A-A preflop, making it easy for me to get rid of my hand. If someone could tell me how to filter my stats to show my opponents fold % after i 4bet, i would be happy to run it and post the results. My guess is 75% of the time my opponents fold their hand.


    3rd situation. You say that you think you will get someone to fold to your 3-bet when the pot is reraised? I don't think you are going to get BOTH of your opponents to fold here. I fold here.
    I would say that my opponents fold often enough to make 4betting profitable. Against someone with a tight 3betting range (A-K/Q-Q+), i am probably not going to be 4betting. There are also other players who won't fold A-Q to a 4bet. Those aren't the players i am targetting with 4betting A-K. Fortunately, there are a lot of players who 3bet more lightly than that and who pay attention. So, by 4betting A-K, i can frequently get other A-K's and Q-Q's to lay their hands down, not to mention weaker hands.

    4th situation:
    What is your opponents 3-betting range? How deep are the stacks? This is really vague advice. If we are assuming deep stacks then I would give this guy a 3-betting range of TT+/AK. What exactly are you a favorite of? Also, presumably you are OOP most of the time in this spot.
    Lol, i really just threw this post up. I should have put the 3bet standard at the top of this whole post.

    Before we get to the choices, i am assuming that opponents 3-bet range is (J-J+, A-Q+).
    I didn't explicitly mention it, but this was meant to be the standard 3bet range of my opponents in all the situations. Also, i should have mentioned "assume 100xBB stacks for all situations".

    What i am favored against isn't as important as what hands he will give up when faced with a 4bet. I believe that most opponents (the ones i 4bet with A-K) will give up a significant portion of their 3bet range to a 4bet.

    True, i will usually be OOP. But, it is true that as the the stacks get shorter, the less important position is. That is because there will be fewer bets made during the hand (since you would presumably be AI before the river if half your stack was in preflop).

    6th situation:
    Too vague again. What happened to the other limpers? Anytime you get 3-bet with AK you aren't liking life. You are probably going to have to hit to win and when you do you won't win much. Sometimes when you hit you will end up losing more money to a set(AA/KK). This is reverse implied odds.
    The second limper folded. I should've written that.

    I love life when i get 3bet with AK, unless i am against a nit. This would be when I would 4bet.

    I don't think you have to win to hit, unless you play your hand that way. Like i actually did say in the OP (something i actually wrote in my first post , and in many many poker books ), being the aggressor gives you more opportunities to win the hand.

    Reverse implied odds do exist, but only apply in this situation if someone decides to trap me preflop with A-A/K-K. If they do, i make a note of it and generally stop 4betting them with A-K.[/quote]
  5. #5
    I think your post was pretty accurate. However, four-bet with AK... dunno bout that one. Maybe at the donkstakes. Against a normally functioning human mind? Nah.
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill
    I 4bet AK mostly because doing so allows me to take control of betting on the flop.
    Unless the bets sizes are retarded, if you're 4-betting PF then you're only going to be left with ~PSB with 100 BB effective stacks. I don't know who you think you're outplaying when your only option is to stick the rest in.

    Another good thing about 4betting A-K is that most players with 5bet/push their K-K/A-A preflop, making it easy for me to get rid of my hand.
    If you add QQ and AK to their pushing range you're making a mistake by folding after 4-betting.




    With 100BB effective stacks I'm not 4-betting with anything I'm not felting regardless if the rest goes in PF or on the flop. Doing anything else is just FPS in my opinion and is sometimes going to put your in situations that are harder than they need to be. About the only reason I don't always 4-bet push is because some people will think they have fold equity and will go ahead and 5-bet AI with hands like TT+ and AK.
    TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
  7. #7
    In regards to my 4bet size, i would probably stick in ~1/3(30BB's) of my stack in or less to raise. This allows me to make a 2/3 PSB(40BB's), and still be able to fold on the turn, having about 30BB's if my opponent were to call on the flop, at which point i would be done betting. Even if an Ace or King were to hit on the turn, i would be able to let it go if my opponent were to bet on it.

    If my opponents will 5bet/push A-K/Q-Q or less preflop, then they're not the type of opponent i will be 4betting with A-K.
  8. #8
    i guess if you fold pf to a 5 bet after 4 betting that would give you a pretty crazy image that you really like to bluff. or just finding out you 4bet with AK could give you a better image to get paid off with other things.
  9. #9
    Another good thing about 4betting A-K is that most players with 5bet/push their K-K/A-A preflop, making it easy for me to get rid of my hand. If someone could tell me how to filter my stats to show my opponents fold % after i 4bet, i would be happy to run it and post the results. My guess is 75% of the time my opponents fold their hand.
    Alright, so your villain makes in 3BB, you make it 12BB, he makes it 40BB, you make it...? If you have 100BB you have to go ai here, not sure where you are getting away from anything. Besides, even if you had 200BB and you make it 120BB then you will be getting240:80 on a flop call.

    If you really are getting a lot of folds when you 4-bet then maybe it is ok, but I am speculating that 75% is crazy high.

    3rd situation. You say that you think you will get someone to fold to your 3-bet when the pot is reraised? I don't think you are going to get BOTH of your opponents to fold here. I fold here.
    I would say that my opponents fold often enough to make 4betting profitable. Against someone with a tight 3betting range (A-K/Q-Q+), i am probably not going to be 4betting. There are also other players who won't fold A-Q to a 4bet. Those aren't the players i am targetting with 4betting A-K. Fortunately, there are a lot of players who 3bet more lightly than that and who pay attention. So, by 4betting A-K, i can frequently get other A-K's and Q-Q's to lay their hands down, not to mention weaker hands.
    Ah, so you have a read to make this play.

    So, this probably isn't a standard play, now is it?
    4th situation:
    What is your opponents 3-betting range? How deep are the stacks? This is really vague advice. If we are assuming deep stacks then I would give this guy a 3-betting range of TT+/AK. What exactly are you a favorite of? Also, presumably you are OOP most of the time in this spot.
    Lol, i really just threw this post up. I should have put the 3bet standard at the top of this whole post.

    Before we get to the choices, i am assuming that opponents 3-bet range is (J-J+, A-Q+).
    I didn't explicitly mention it, but this was meant to be the standard 3bet range of my opponents in all the situations. Also, i should have mentioned "assume 100xBB stacks for all situations".

    What i am favored against isn't as important as what hands he will give up when faced with a 4bet. I believe that most opponents (the ones i 4bet with A-K) will give up a significant portion of their 3bet range to a 4bet.
    A significant portion? What is this signficant portion? JJ and AQ,? Maybe AK? So, anytime you are called it will be by QQ+/AK(QQ/AK I think should be discounted) and you are going to be ai in at best a coin flip situation vs. QQ and most of the time in really bad shape.

    Reverse implied odds do exist, but only apply in this situation if someone decides to trap me preflop with A-A/K-K. If they do, i make a note of it and generally stop 4betting them with A-K.
    AA-KK is precisely what you are going to run into a significant percentage of the time.
  10. #10
    4-bet AK against a light 3-bet isolation range. It's not really +EV until $200NL+. It happens at $100, but rarely. 4-betting AK is a realistic and legitimate play. It's VERY tricky however. You need to have the correct equity based on a host of factors.

    At lower limits I would 4-bet AK against a maniac 3-bettor, because he'll stack off with bullshit.
    It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
    Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
  11. #11
    Chopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigslikk
    I think your post was pretty accurate....
    what are we to expect with a name like yours?

    but seriously, at higher stakes, i cannot comment, but at lower stakes...

    AK can be deadly. both ways. most times i recommend only calling raises with it, not RRing. an exception would be when you need a better read on the range of your opponents cards. like a semi-loose aggro raising...you may RR him to see how much he likes his hand, knowing he will still push w/ JJ+.

    you need to remember AK is ONLY potential, not a made hand pre-flop. sure, BIG potential, but still only a draw.

    however you play AK, it IS strong PRE-flop. and if missed, it's a paper-mache (spelling?) hand POST-flop. you need to hit to feel confident against most opponents. however, when you do, you have a very solid hand on most boards. but you still need to play it fast post-flop, imo, because of TP's vulnerability as more cards come out.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

    Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
  12. #12
    I think that you are a little off in your thinking that most players will 4-bet their AA/KK back at you. I usually don't. I will usually let them think that they have the lead in the hand so that they bet the flop, which usually leads to AI quite easily.

    On another note, I think that you are losing a lot of value by playing your AK so aggressively. You are going to be folding out almost all other aces (except AA of course) and that is not a good thing. These are hands that you have dominated and that can potentially give you a lot of money.

    unless of course, as has been stated, this type of play gives you a maniac image (or you already have one) which allows you to be paid more on your monsters and has people calling your 4-bets with AQ more often.

    It almost seems like you would be better off taking a different hand as your light 4-betting hand, since you arent really playing it for showdown value, but as a type of semibluff. You might want to use a hand like 66. It has a decent amount of equity against the range you have given (JJ/AQ+) and only needs 1 card to make it a much stronger hand.
    Plus it is much more likely to get paid off if you hit. Not too many QQ hands are going to be happy about putting in more on a K or A high flop after the preflop action.
    "If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
  13. #13
    First, just to clarify...
    1bet = limp
    2bet = raise
    3bet = reraise
    4bet = re-reraise

    I think this is correct

    4-bet AK against a light 3-bet isolation range. It's not really +EV until $200NL+.
    Considering most lower limit opponents have a tighter 3bet opponents than those at mid stakes (in my brief 200NL FR @ Pokerstars), this would make sense.

    It's VERY tricky however. You need to have the correct equity based on a host of factors
    Well, i hope you or somebody else who plays well returns and elaborates a few of these factors, or presents a link to another post on the subject

    I think that you are a little off in your thinking that most players will 4-bet their AA/KK back at you. I usually don't. I will usually let them think that they have the lead in the hand so that they bet the flop, which usually leads to AI quite easily.
    Most players aren't as smart as you at 100NL (discounting most regulars). There are plently of weak players for buy in for full stacks and bet/raise whenever they get the opportunity with A-A/K-K preflop.

    On another note, I think that you are losing a lot of value by playing your AK so aggressively. You are going to be folding out almost all other aces (except AA of course) and that is not a good thing. These are hands that you have dominated and that can potentially give you a lot of money.
    I 4 bet A-K preflop usually as a way to take control of the betting on the flop. I usually don't just call preflop with A-K into a 3bet because most opponents will follow up on the flop with a continuation bet, and i will have to dump my hand to a non Ace or King high flop. Even then, the only hands that will continue to put money into that pot after the continuation bet would be mostly hands that i tie (A-K) or are dominated by (A-A/K-K) When i do 4bet, i do it lightly by essentially making a min re-reraise. So usually there would still be enough of my stack behind that even a solid flop bet would not leave me PC to the hand if my opponent called. But, your final advice...

    It almost seems like you would be better off taking a different hand as your light 4-betting hand, since you arent really playing it for showdown value, but as a type of semibluff. You might want to use a hand like 66. It has a decent amount of equity against the range you have given (JJ/AQ+) and only needs 1 card to make it a much stronger hand.
    Plus it is much more likely to get paid off if you hit. Not too many QQ hands are going to be happy about putting in more on a K or A high flop after the preflop action.
    was excellent. I think it might be the biggest reason to dump A-K from my 4betting range against standard 100NL opponents, since as you mentioned my hand basically turns into a semibluff against any hands that would call my 4bet. And therefore using hands that have higher deception would make more sense Personally, i would pick SC's over smaller PP's for this due to their higher drawing power (more flops improve their hand, giving them lots of drawing options against an overpair) Although atm i use SC's only as a 3bet semibluff. If you come back to this post, could you explain why small PP's might work well/better for a 4bet than SC's?
  14. #14
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    to add a quick note about pp's v. sc's...

    it is my belief that pp's can be played more aggro on almost ALL boards than a sc. with the sc, you need to hit something sexy. with the pp, you still are ahead of missed AQ+. and the "set value" absolutely de-stacks a KK or AA more confidently than the sc. whereas with the sc, if you flop your monster, i doubt you get alot of action out of AA and the like until the board pairs, and then you're toast.

    good thread, i'm getting a lot out of it.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

    Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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