Optimal PT Stats for a TAG

[MetsFan259]

Was just curious what kind of numbers should I be looking for on my Poker Tracker for things such as PF Raise, Win at Showdown, Go to Showdown, etc. if I am aiming to play as a TAG?

[martindcx1e]

you won't like your answers if you want clear cut numbers...
play what is optimal at that moment at that table with your image vs. those opponents.

[MetsFan259]

Well - maybe you could give a % range that would make the most sense under "normal" conditions...obviously at a full ring table it would be pretty detrimental to see over 50% of all hands as a TAG player no matter what your competition may be..

[Pelion]

15-20% VPIP
7-10% PFR

go to showdown and win at showdown are far more table dependent. You will go to showdown lots on passive tables when its checked down but you will hardly ever win. The most important thing about these stats is that the pots you win are big and the pots you lose are small.

Dont try to use these numbers as targets. Be adaptable.

[sejje]

obviously at a full ring table it would be pretty detrimental to see over 50% of all hands as a TAG player

Almost as obvious, you wouldn't really fit the definition of TAG if you saw half the flops.

Martin gave a response that's typical. That's great advice, sure, but it's not "how to be a TAG." It's the best way to play, but it's not always TAG.

Pelion gave accurate stats. If your play fits in those statistics, you would be considered a TAG. I agree, however, that you should not aim to meet certain statistic levels.

[MetsFan259]

hmm...my play def seems much more laggy then I originally thought. My VPIP is 28% over 2200 hands, but I have been succesful as my BB/100 Hands is 26.32 at NL $25. Am I playing too loose and just getting very lucky - or are those numbers acceptable to be a winning player?

[Nova442]

Your sample size is way too small to draw any conclusions about winrate, but 28% VPIP is definitely too loose for SSNL full ring.

[Renton]

im 19/14 at six max and 17/11 at full ring

[MetsFan259]

I also forgot to mention that I play with the minimum buy in -$5- and when I get up to around 15 I usually leave the table and go join another one for 5. Could this justify my increased VPIP %?

[Pelion]

with that small a buyin you should probably just be pusing good hands preflop.

Who knows what numbers are optimal for that buyin. $5 buyin isnt optimal thats for damn sure.

[martindcx1e]

you're are really hindering every part of your game by buying in for the minimum. that goes for fun, improvement, and profit.

[Renton]

you can't play tag with 20bb

[sejje]

I also forgot to mention that I play with the minimum buy in -$5- and when I get up to around 15 I usually leave the table and go join another one for 5. Could this justify my increased VPIP %?

Actually, I think the opposite. It makes your loose play worse.

Unless somehow you're causing non top-pair hands to commit because your stack is short when you have them beat? I doubt that's the case.

[martindcx1e]

metsfan - why do you play with the minimum?

[MetsFan259]

I play with the minimum because I find my play after the flop has major flaws at times and playing with the minimum turns a mistake from very costly, a full buy in, to only 5 dollars. It also takes away the element of me making bad bluff plays or being bluffed, and of course, if someone tries to suckout on me - they can never be paid off.....

[MetsFan259]

Actually, I think the opposite. It makes your loose play worse.

Unless somehow you're causing non top-pair hands to commit because your stack is short when you have them beat? I doubt that's the case.

You would be surprised. I find in NL $25 at Pstars there are a lot of multiway pots pre-flop with little or no raising. Many times I have had people try to bluff out 3-4 people with myself in the hand, and then by the time they make a c-bet, they are forced to call my reraise due to the fact that it is not much more to call. For some reason, I think people think the fact that I have only 5 dollars makes it reasonable to call or bluff with AK missing after the turn or even river - just my observations.

[martindcx1e]

I play with the minimum because I find my play after the flop has major flaws at times and playing with the minimum turns a mistake from very costly, a full buy in, to only 5 dollars. It also takes away the element of me making bad bluff plays or being bluffed, and of course, if someone tries to suckout on me - they can never be paid off.....

why don't you get a little discipline and play deeper? seriously man the variance is huge playing a 20bb game, and your br will only creep upwards very slowly. what exactly are your postflop flaws? i think you should identify them and let us help you out. your br will thank you.

[MetsFan259]

Another reason why I also played the minimum was because I only had $50 to deposit, but now that I have increased my bankroll to $305 perhaps I have the money to sit down with more at NL $25.

I think my major problems are mainly not knowing when to fold or not knowing when my hand is 2nd best. I sometimes to c/c the flop, turn, and river with top pair decent kicker if the situation arises where my opponent is putting a lot of pressure on me. I really don't know how to deal with this effectively to make my plays +ev. On my PT, all of my two pairs, straights, flushes, full houses are positive except one pair, and this is because it is a glaring leak in my game. This problem must also be attributed to the excessive number of hands I play. I think I have a bit of a poker identity crisis - I really don't know what style I'm exactly shooting for - so I really don't give myself the strictest guidelines to stick to as far as playing hands is concerned. It is important to note though that I recognize the difference in EP and LP, calling a raise between raising, etc.

[XTR1000]

play 10NL until you´re rolled for 25NL.

buying in short may cause that one pair leak. with 20bb you´re supposed to stack off here and there when you flop TPTK/GK. in multiway pots u can´t avoid ppl drawing out on you. it´s only $2 or $3 more to go for their flush/oes draw and they get two cards plus a showdown without any fight.

in general, w/ TPTK/GK look for reasons to fold not for reasons to call.

[Pelion]

I play with the minimum because I find my play after the flop has had no practise and playing with the minimum prevents me from ever improving. It also takes away the element of me having to make decisions, and of course, if someone tries to suckout on me - ill make it cheap for them because I only have $5 to protect my hands with.....

You sound like youd rather be playing blackjack.

[MetsFan259]

I played 25 NL last night, and I lost 100 dollars - mostly on horrible bad beats. I'll post the hands to see what you guys think.

[Miffed22001]

Stop playing 25nl on pokerstars.
No, im being serious, leave that nit infested tarthole until you have no choice other than to play there.

And the first mention of 'but the software is great' will get you a beating (im only semi-serious on the beating )

[MetsFan259]

POKERSTARS GAME #7005924740: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/13 - 03:16:33 (ET)
Table 'Ambrosia II' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 4: MetsFan259 ($42.75 in chips)
Seat 5: enright3060 ($29.05 in chips)
Maximus253 will be allowed to play after the button
MetsFan259: posts small blind $0.10
enright3060: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MetsFan259 [4s 4c]
MetsFan259: raises $0.75 to $1
enright3060: raises $0.75 to $1.75
MetsFan259: calls $0.75
*** FLOP *** [Ac Qc Th]
MetsFan259: checks
enright3060: checks
*** TURN *** [Ac Qc Th] [4d]
MetsFan259: bets $0.25
enright3060: raises $0.75 to $1
MetsFan259: raises $4 to $5
enright3060: raises $4 to $9
MetsFan259: raises $32 to $41 and is all-in
enright3060: calls $18.30 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [Ac Qc Th 4d] [Jh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
MetsFan259: shows [4s 4c] (three of a kind, Fours)
enright3060: shows [As Ks] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
enright3060 collected $57.10 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $58.10 | Rake $1
Board [Ac Qc Th 4d Jh]
Seat 4: MetsFan259 (small blind) showed [4s 4c] and lost with three of a kind, Fours
Seat 5: enright3060 (button) (big blind) showed [As Ks] and won ($57.10) with a straight, Ten to Ace

[MetsFan259]

POKERSTARS GAME #7005952769: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/13 - 03:22:02 (ET)
Table 'Ambrosia II' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 4: MetsFan259 ($26.55 in chips)
Seat 5: enright3060 ($34.65 in chips)
Seat 6: Maximus253 ($15.95 in chips)
Maximus253: posts small blind $0.10
MetsFan259: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MetsFan259 [3h Ks]
enright3060: raises $0.25 to $0.50
Maximus253: folds
MetsFan259: calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** [Kc 8c 3s]
MetsFan259: bets $1
enright3060: raises $1 to $2
MetsFan259: raises $2 to $4
enright3060: raises $2 to $6
MetsFan259: raises $6 to $12
enright3060: raises $6 to $18
MetsFan259: raises $8.05 to $26.05 and is all-in
enright3060: calls $8.05
*** TURN *** [Kc 8c 3s] [Jh]
*** RIVER *** [Kc 8c 3s Jh] [8d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
MetsFan259: shows [3h Ks] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
enright3060: shows [Kd Js] (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
enright3060 collected $52.20 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $53.20 | Rake $1
Board [Kc 8c 3s Jh 8d]
Seat 4: MetsFan259 (big blind) showed [3h Ks] and lost with two pair, Kings and Eights
Seat 5: enright3060 (button) showed [Kd Js] and won ($52.20) with two pair, Kings and Jacks
Seat 6: Maximus253 (small blind) folded before Flop

[MetsFan259]

POKERSTARS GAME #7005720860: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/13 - 02:40:26 (ET)
Table 'Agnia' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: MIB2 ($22.35 in chips)
Seat 2: MetsFan259 ($57.30 in chips)
Seat 3: G_frez ($20.50 in chips)
Seat 5: Phearl3ss ($4.75 in chips)
Seat 6: docholiday84 ($17.45 in chips)
Seat 7: Blind Sider ($9.85 in chips)
Seat 8: tilted fish ($26.30 in chips)
Seat 9: burtonlo ($22.65 in chips)
MIB2: posts small blind $0.10
MetsFan259: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MetsFan259 [3d 7s]
G_frez: folds
Phearl3ss: calls $0.25
docholiday84: calls $0.25
G_frez leaves the table
Blind Sider: calls $0.25
tilted fish: folds
burtonlo: calls $0.25
MIB2: calls $0.15
MetsFan259: checks
*** FLOP *** [4d 3c 3s]
MIB2: bets $1
MetsFan259: calls $1
Phearl3ss: folds
docholiday84: calls $1
Blind Sider: folds
burtonlo: calls $1
*** TURN *** [4d 3c 3s] [8s]
MIB2: checks
MetsFan259: bets $4
docholiday84: calls $4
burtonlo: folds
MIB2: folds
*** RIVER *** [4d 3c 3s 8s] [Kc]
MetsFan259: bets $13
docholiday84: calls $12.20 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
MetsFan259: shows [3d 7s] (three of a kind, Threes)
docholiday84: shows [8c 8h] (a full house, Eights full of Threes)
docholiday84 collected $36.05 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $37.90 | Rake $1.85
Board [4d 3c 3s 8s Kc]
Seat 1: MIB2 (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 2: MetsFan259 (big blind) showed [3d 7s] and lost with three of a kind, Threes
Seat 3: G_frez folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Phearl3ss folded on the Flop
Seat 6: docholiday84 showed [8c 8h] and won ($36.05) with a full house, Eights full of Threes
Seat 7: Blind Sider folded on the Flop
Seat 8: tilted fish folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: burtonlo (button) folded on the Turn

[MetsFan259]

Someone please tell me what's going on or am I just getting the *&#ing worst run of my life?

[MetsFan259]

All of these beats have made me go to 6.50 turbos temporarily because non-stop beatings like this take me off my game.

[Fnord]

All of these beats have made me go to 6.50 turbos temporarily because non-stop beatings like this take me off my game.

These aren't the droids you're looking for.

[Renton]

Im so tired of the smell of shit, that I decided to pilot my plane into a shitstorm.

[donkbee]

Mmm post whoring. I like posting 5 times in a row sometimes too ...

[martindcx1e]

listen mets...you may be running a little bad. if you get your money in ahead then fine. i think getting sucked out on may be tilting you though...that K3 hand is a fold preflop. i say play full at 10nl til you get to like $500, and then try 25nl again. post lots of hands here, listen (while thinking critically), and you will improve.

[sejje]

Im so tired of the smell of shit, that I decided to pilot my plane into a shitstorm.

Hahahaha.

Those are beats, but what happened the rest of the session? Are you saying you never won a pot? Are you hiding the pots you lost that you played badly?

[Dislexsik]

Hi ripjohngotti

[Ash256]

If you think you have huge flaws in your postflop game, you won't make any money by not playing postflop and forever buying in short. Go down to 0.01/0.02 NL and buy in for a full stack and learn to play postflop if necessary.

[bigslikk]

You sound like youd rather be ignoring my consant, intentional misquoting on this forum which make me seem like an unfunny jerkoff.

Hey- I'm just repeating what that guy said up there ^^. Don't shoot the messenger.

[MetsFan259]

thanks martin - you're the only one with real advice. There was one questionable hand in particular that I am unsure about. I'll post it - see what everyone thinks.

[MetsFan259]

POKERSTARS GAME #7005803059: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/13 - 02:54:23 (ET)
Table 'Cebriones IV' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: MetsFan259 ($28.55 in chips)
Seat 2: Svensonator ($24.30 in chips)
Seat 3: x walks x ($24.25 in chips)
Seat 6: wespalmer ($8.65 in chips)
Seat 7: bobobdave ($40.65 in chips)
Seat 8: martyhog ($29.60 in chips)
Seat 9: roland1952 ($24 in chips)
x walks x: posts small blind $0.10
wespalmer: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MetsFan259 [Qs Ac]
bobobdave: raises $1 to $1.25
martyhog: folds
roland1952: folds
MetsFan259: calls $1.25
Svensonator: folds
x walks x: folds
wespalmer: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [Qh Th 3s]
wespalmer: checks
bobobdave: bets $3
MetsFan259: calls $3
wespalmer: raises $4.40 to $7.40 and is all-in
bobobdave: calls $4.40
MetsFan259: raises $19.90 to $27.30 and is all-in
bobobdave: calls $19.90
*** TURN *** [Qh Th 3s] [5h]
*** RIVER *** [Qh Th 3s 5h] [Jd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
bobobdave: shows [Kc Ks] (a pair of Kings)
MetsFan259: mucks hand
bobobdave collected $38.05 from side pot
wespalmer: mucks hand
bobobdave collected $24.80 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $65.85 Main pot $24.80. Side pot $38.05. | Rake $3
Board [Qh Th 3s 5h Jd]
Seat 1: MetsFan259 mucked [Qs Ac]
Seat 2: Svensonator (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: x walks x (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: wespalmer (big blind) mucked [9s Tc]
Seat 7: bobobdave showed [Kc Ks] and won ($62.85) with a pair of Kings
Seat 8: martyhog folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: roland1952 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[takesix]

Flat call off the AI raise should worry you. Apparently it did not.

[martindcx1e]

POKERSTARS GAME #7005803059: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/13 - 02:54:23 (ET)
Table 'Cebriones IV' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: MetsFan259 ($28.55 in chips)
Seat 2: Svensonator ($24.30 in chips)
Seat 3: x walks x ($24.25 in chips)
Seat 6: wespalmer ($8.65 in chips)
Seat 7: bobobdave ($40.65 in chips)
Seat 8: martyhog ($29.60 in chips)
Seat 9: roland1952 ($24 in chips)
x walks x: posts small blind $0.10
wespalmer: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MetsFan259 [Qs Ac]
bobobdave: raises $1 to $1.25
martyhog: folds
roland1952: folds
MetsFan259: calls $1.25
Svensonator: folds
x walks x: folds
wespalmer: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [Qh Th 3s]
wespalmer: checks
bobobdave: bets $3
MetsFan259: calls $3
wespalmer: raises $4.40 to $7.40 and is all-in
bobobdave: calls $4.40
MetsFan259: raises $19.90 to $27.30 and is all-in
bobobdave: calls $19.90
*** TURN *** [Qh Th 3s] [5h]
*** RIVER *** [Qh Th 3s 5h] [Jd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
bobobdave: shows [Kc Ks] (a pair of Kings)
MetsFan259: mucks hand
bobobdave collected $38.05 from side pot
wespalmer: mucks hand
bobobdave collected $24.80 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $65.85 Main pot $24.80. Side pot $38.05. | Rake $3
Board [Qh Th 3s 5h Jd]
Seat 1: MetsFan259 mucked [Qs Ac]
Seat 2: Svensonator (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: x walks x (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: wespalmer (big blind) mucked [9s Tc]
Seat 7: bobobdave showed [Kc Ks] and won ($62.85) with a pair of Kings
Seat 8: martyhog folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: roland1952 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I usually fold preflop here. This is a bad bad spot to push on the flop also. Maybe call and see a turn, but pushing is the worst option. I can understand your frustration lately if this is typical. Keep playing and learning man. You'll get the hang of it.

[bigred]

Mmm post whoring. I like posting 5 times in a row sometimes too ...

OMG, don't you hate post whoring?

[Chopper]

as for "ideal" TAG poker...i read somewhere that you should try for 18/9/2.00 for vpip/pfr/AF, respectively...win $$ at SD ~30-35%...win SD ~55-60%. but those are ranges, not exacts.

as for all your hands...my opinions...these beats are not as bad as you may feel.

1)why bet only .25 on the turn? if you want to bet, you need to PROTECT your hand against the obvious str8 draw with a ps bet. if you get raised, you need to consider calling and blocking or folding altogether here.

2)why are you even thinking about playing K3o?...and to a raise no less? VERY POOR pre-flop. min-raising the flop is a TERRIBLE play here, too, as it sends no message of strength to your opponent in a small-stakes game. i agree the beat was bad, but you need to bump any K with a better kicker off the hand ASAP. honestly, i find i always seem to receive a horrid beat when i SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN IN THE HAND TO BEGIN WITH.

3)not much to correct here...shit happens.

4)calling a 5X pfr with AQo? WTF, you are asking to be dominated. and you should only do something like this with a SPECIFIC READ anyway. it just puts you in a bad spot before you even see the flop. and pushing TPTK when there is multiple interest/aggression in the hand already is hardly ever a good move. fwiw, i'm not fond of bobodaves line here, either...too passive, imo.

hope this helps. remember, when you ask for advice here with specific hands, it tends to get pretty honest and can be brutal...keep your chin up and keep improving

good luck in future hands.

[Fnord]

{ locked before this thread kills any more of my brain cells }