Flush draw. How to play?

[pokerroomace]

Player A has £40. Player B has £40.

The pot contains £40 and Player's A and B are the only two players in the hand.

Player A has Ah2h. The flop is 7h8h9s. Player A acts first.

Let's just say for argument's sake that if another heart comes, then Player A wins the hand. And also, that if Player A hits top pair, trips, 2 pair he still looses the hand - Player A needs to hit his flush to win the hand and nothing else.

How could Player A play this hand?

Would you say that Player A moving allin is an acceptable play? If Player A does move allin he'll be getting 2 to 1 on his money and since Player A has a 35% chance of hitting the flush - it's a good bet. Also, Player A has folding equity. He could win the hand straight away if Player B folds.

Is this an acceptable way to play the hand?

What do you think the optimal way of playing this hand is? (We don't know anything about our opponent and this is the only hand we will ever play against him)

[2_Thumbs_Up]

Push

[KingofAces]

deepends of your style of play, but All-in or betting 2 make Player B Pot-Commit. is 1 Option.

Other option would be check n hope 4 the free-Card.
If Player B bets then reraise All-in!

my opinion!

[Warpe]

It would have to be a fairly exceptional circumstance for the pot to be this big preflop. Be realistic or there's not much point to this exercise.

[nutsinho]

if player A cannot win with trips or 2 pair , this implies he has no folding equity.

Therefore it's only about breakeven to push.

Any other play (c/c, c/r, b3b, c/f will also be pretty much breakeven.

However, "Let's just say for argument's sake that if another heart comes, then Player A wins the hand. And also, that if Player A hits top pair, trips, 2 pair he still looses the hand - Player A needs to hit his flush to win the hand and nothing else. " is not actually a possible circumstance, so this post is kind of silly

[pokerroomace]

It would have to be a fairly exceptional circumstance for the pot to be this big preflop. Be realistic or there's not much point to this exercise.

No. It's not. Similar situations can arise. And a very similar example did arrive with 2 friends of mine 2 weeks ago. The only difference was that Player A had over £100. But that doesn't make a difference to the question.
Player A hit his flush and Player B lost with his straight. Player B got annoyed and thought that it was a bad play by Player A. But I wasn't too sure. It turns out that it wasn't a poor play.

if player A cannot win with trips or 2 pair , this implies he has no folding equity.

Therefore it's only about breakeven to push.

Any other play (c/c, c/r, b3b, c/f will also be pretty much breakeven.

However, "Let's just say for argument's sake that if another heart comes, then Player A wins the hand. And also, that if Player A hits top pair, trips, 2 pair he still looses the hand - Player A needs to hit his flush to win the hand and nothing else. " is not actually a possible circumstance, so this post is kind of silly

You're right. I did notice this when I was writing the question, but I was hoping that nobody would notice.
What I should have written is: "Player A doesn't win if he hits an Ace. Player A does win if he hits 2 pair or trips". (This will barely increase Player A's chance of winning anyway).
With this edit, Player A does have folding equity. (eg. if Player B is holding A9, A8 or A7 or any Ax in fact.

[nutsinho]

haha let me apologize for saying that it wasnt a possible circumstance, because a straight with no hearts fits.

and in the new version where he does have FE, he wants to make the strongest play possible (one that looks like a legit hand rather than a draw) while not giving player B a must-call situation due to pot odds (this is why a check-raise is probably not the best play

I think betting like 29 is probably best, obviously getting the rest in if called/raised

[dioufy77]

remember the old stud theory. dont draw at a flush draw on the flop unless you have 2 overcards to the board. in tournaments the good players stay away from draws

[pokerroomace]

remember the old stud theory. dont draw at a flush draw on the flop unless you have 2 overcards to the board. in tournaments the good players stay away from draws

I don't know this theory. Could you please explain it to me.

If you're getting paid 5 to 1 on a nut flush draw, that has 35% chance of hitting, you still fold? (With no more betting btw).

You should definitely call in a cash game. And surely you should also call in a tournament

[dioufy77]

if the pot odds are in your favour then certainly cal lin a cash game if you are drawing to the nut flush but if your opponent has manipulated the pot odds then i think my theory is a good theory. In cash games you want to push your marginal edges. In tournaments you want to stay away from marginal situations especially early on as we all know about the luck factor in this game. im just telling you what i have learned and read in books written by TJ Cloutier, he says the good players stay away from draws and look for better situations, if youre not good enough to do that then youre not a top player i guess.

[pokerroomace]

if the pot odds are in your favour then certainly cal lin a cash game if you are drawing to the nut flush but if your opponent has manipulated the pot odds then i think my theory is a good theory. In cash games you want to push your marginal edges. In tournaments you want to stay away from marginal situations especially early on as we all know about the luck factor in this game. im just telling you what i have learned and read in books written by TJ Cloutier, he says the good players stay away from draws and look for better situations, if youre not good enough to do that then youre not a top player i guess.

http://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/15093
This article says that you should take the hands where your 55% favourite to win.

Also, 99.9% aren't the TJ Coultiers of this world. So does this advise really apply to us?

[potdragn]

i guess i dont understand pot odds, but I just dont get it when someone says "well im getting 2:1 on my money for the nuts!". First of all, 2:1 is pretty much the least you can get, ie one other guy playing with you, right? Secondly, if you only win that 30% of the time (against the straight withot any hearts its over 36%, but against a set of 9s on that board, A2h is less than 25%) but play for stacks, how is that correct (how many nut straights or sets fold to an all in push here?)? In the long term that seems a loser. If you add players C and D calling, the odds to call are obviously through the roof. or am i misunderstanding?

[pokerroomace]

i guess i dont understand pot odds, but I just dont get it when someone says "well im getting 2:1 on my money for the nuts!". First of all, 2:1 is pretty much the least you can get, ie one other guy playing with you, right? Secondly, if you only win that 30% of the time (against the straight withot any hearts its over 36%, but against a set of 9s on that board, A2h is less than 25%) but play for stacks, how is that correct (how many nut straights or sets fold to an all in push here?)? In the long term that seems a loser. If you add players C and D calling, the odds to call are obviously through the roof. or am i misunderstanding?

If you're getting paid 2-to-1 to hit the stonecold nuts - that means that if you have better than a 1 in 3 chance of hitting the stonecold nuts, it is a good bet.

If you get paid 3 to 1 on something that has a 35% chance of winning - you will be making a good bet (and should therefore call). If you play that hand 100000 times. You will have made a profit by the end.

This is only for cash game tho. In a tourney more factors come into play.

[potdragn]

If you're getting paid 2-to-1 to hit the stonecold nuts - that means that if you have better than a 1 in 3 chance of hitting the stonecold nuts, it is a good bet.

i dont understand. 50% of the pot vs winning 35%.
If you play the hand 3 times, you win once and take a buy-in but have lost two buyins of your own the other two times you lost. how is that making money in the long run?

[pokerroomace]

If you're getting paid 2-to-1 to hit the stonecold nuts - that means that if you have better than a 1 in 3 chance of hitting the stonecold nuts, it is a good bet.

i dont understand. 50% of the pot vs winning 35%.
If you play the hand 3 times, you win once and take a buy-in but have lost two buyins of your own the other two times you lost. how is that making money in the long run?

If the pot is £30 and you need to call £15 to play (and there's no more betting in the hand). Then if you have better than a 33% chance of winning the hand it is a good bet - you will win in the long run. If you have less than 33% it is a bad bet - you will loose in the long run.

If you win this hand 1 in 3 times, then this will happen:
Loose £15.
Loose £15.
Put in £15 and get £45 back.

On those 3 hands you've put in £45 and taken out £45. So you haven't won or lost anything.

If you win more than 1 in 3 times. You make a profit. Understand?

[XTR1000]

in this situation the odds are right (though 2pair won´t win the hand for you, if villians holding A7-A9 or 77-99, JT)

but consider, that mostly in cashgames the stacks are much deeper compared to the pot. assuming both players are nearly fully stacked and there was not much action preflop (if it was, A2s shouldn´t take part in this hand) with standard bets around 4-5BBs there´s 10 BBs in the pot, stacks stick around 90 BBS, now pushing gives you far less than 2:1.

[pokerroomace]

in this situation the odds are right (though 2pair won´t win the hand for you, if villians holding A7-A9 or 77-99, JT)

but consider, that mostly in cashgames the stacks are much deeper compared to the pot. assuming both players are nearly fully stacked and there was not much action preflop (if it was, A2s shouldn´t take part in this hand) with standard bets around 4-5BBs there´s 10 BBs in the pot, stacks stick around 90 BBS, now pushing gives you far less than 2:1.

ye. of course.
but when you say you shouldn't be in the hand with A2s. what do you mean?
if you watch high stakes poker on youtube you see them going into a hand with any 2 cards. i don't usually play a hand like A2, but you can play a hand with any 2 cards