Question about straight/flush draws.

[MacsenWledig]

I'm slightly confused about what is meant by a straight of flush draw. Is it any hand that has three or more of the cards necessary by after the flop, or is the term used only for hands that have four of the cards after the flop? If the term is used for hands with only three of the required cards after the flop, how do you properly calculate your outs?

[freechus9]

I don't really understand your question, but a straight is a sequence of 5 cards, like 23456. A flush is 5 cards of the same suit, e.g. 5 diamonds or 5 spades. A draw is a straight or flush that has not been completed, but there are still cards to come. E.g. you hold AQ of hearts, and the flop is Kh 9h 2s. You have a flush draw. A straight/flush draw is a combonation of both. E.g. You have 76 of hearts, and the flop is 9h 8h Ac. You have a straight/flush draw.

[MacsenWledig]

Sorry, I shouldn't have used straight/flush like I did, and can see how that can be confusing. Basically, what I am trying to find out any differences in calculating your outs if you need to draw two cards immediately postflop to complete the hand versus needing to draw only one of the cards immediately postflop.

[Anosmic]

Sorry, I shouldn't have used straight/flush like I did, and can see how that can be confusing. Basically, what I am trying to find out any differences in calculating your outs if you need to draw two cards immediately postflop to complete the hand versus needing to draw only one of the cards immediately postflop.

Okay, what I understand of your question is what is the difference in odds between holding say a 3 cards to a flush and 4?

So if you held 4 5

and the river came up
A K 8

You'd have three to a flush. What you're looking for here is the odds to a runner-runner flush (or if the flop had been A 3 8 a runner-runner straight?).

The reason most people don't talk about them is because it's REALLY unlikely that you'll hit them.
In the case of a flush you're a little under 25% to hit your suit and then you're 19.6% on the river (http://www.flopturnriver.com/chart_pot_odds.html). So you have a 1:4 shot of getting a 1:5 shot. Long odds.

A straight is more complex. If you have three consecutive cards 5-6-7 say then you have lots of cards to get you a draw. In this case any 3,4,8 or 9 for a total of 16 cards (so about 32% chance of getting a card that puts you on a draw).
At that point you will either have a 17.4% chance (OESD) or 8.7% (gut-shot) of completing on the river. A low chance of a tiny chance.

Letting 3-cards to a straight influence your decision overmuch would be a real leak. But if you've got a suited hand with say a gut-shot and you know that if the turn hits your suit your odds go from 16 to 26% that's worth bearing in mind when it comes to effective odds.

Long, rambling post. Hope there's an answer in there somewhere.

[Pelion]

These draws are called backdoor draws. Under most cercumstances they arent really worth anything at all and should only be used to tip the balence when you have a close call/fold decision.

e.g. If you have a straight draw that you arent sure you are getting quite the right odds to play, but you also have a backdoor flush draw then that can tip your decision towards a call.

Limit players put the value of a backdoor flush draw as about 1.5 outs. Backdoor straight draws are a more complicated because it depends how many gaps there are between the cards. e.g. 567 is worth more than 568 etc.

Because of the disguised nature of backdoor draws I think they are probably worth slightly more than this in no limit IF YOU ARE DRAWING TO THE NUTS. This is just because the river bet in No Limit is a hell of alot bigger than the river bet in limit.

The times ill play a hand almost purely for a backdoor draw are if im in late position and someone minbets a 4 7 8 flop with a few callers. Ill probably call that with A x because the A could win, the flush probably will win, and every so often youll catch some fool slowplaying a set/straight and take a big chunk with a backdoor flush.
If anyone makes a proper bet then you wont have odds to draw to a backdoor draw.

[MacsenWledig]

Thank you. That gave me the info I needed.