Slow played big PP's

[BobbySalami]

I have spewed off quite a few chips recently to slowplayed big PP's, and I want to figure out how I can fill up this leak in my game.

An example of what I am talking about

Postition ranges from UTG+2 to Button...I am sitting there with something like TT-QQ. Few limpers....gets to me and I rase to 4xBB plus 1xBB per limper.

Usually get 1-2 callers. Flop is rags, 8 high..maybe a flush draw...check to me, bet 2/3 pot, get a caller, turn is a blank under card, check to me bet 1/2 pot or so gets a call....

River is another blank, then it seems they usually bet like 1/2 the pot or something, and I usually end up calling thinking im ahead, is this where my logic is flawed, should I fold immediately when the come to life leading out?

I can think of 4 times in the last few 100 hands that I have been stacked with JJ or QQ up against AA's or KK's played this way, what should I look for in this position?

And please ask for any further information you need, I realize this is a generality, but I cant get hand histories to post that are like this due to the sites ive been playing on recently.

[RiverMonkey]

One thing I'll say is that when you have position and you are leading the betting the whole way and you get called on the flop and turn, and then the caller all of a sudden bets into you on the river, it's time to stop and think and give strong consideration to the possibility that your over-pair is no good.

There's a certain class of opponent's where a river bet like this usually implies that your opponent is thinking, "ok, I check called the whole way, but now I'm worried that if I check the river that they will check behind and I''ll miss out on a value bet, so I better bet". In other words, you can be relatively sure that they ususally think they have the best hand. So proceed appropriately based on your reads etc.

Also note that some opponents will bet that river as a combo thin value bet + blocking bet to prevent you from making a bet that will give them a tough decision (I do this a fair amount; it's one of many ways to over-come some of your positional disadvantage).

There's another class of opponents that won't bet that river hardly ever with a medium strength hand, but will check hoping that you bet the hand so that they can check-raise or check-call. Some opponents just don't make thin value bets on the river, whereas others do.

Knowing your opponents' river betting tendencies helps alot in these types of situations.

Obviously, knowing which players tend to slow-play big hands before the flop and which ones don't is a key here too.

[Warpe]

They call preflop - yaaaay, action!
They call the flop - warning.
They call the turn - entering defensive mode.
They lead the river - destruct sequence initiated.

The good part is, donks that slowplay overpairs preflop eventually get stacked doing it, so you get your money back eventually.

[Miffed22001]

someone tried to tell me this common practice. Well its not, only on party it is and its the semi-passive/wana-be-good fishies trying to trap.
Just dont overplay them if you know they are capable of it. The funny thing is they often cant get all the money in without your help so when they show strength show them the repsect they seem to want.

[WildBobAA]

general rule of thumb: if you ever lose the lead when betting an overpair vs good opponents, you're probably beat

[zook]

Definitely common on Party. Just keep it in your head that everytime a 18/2 or even 20/5 player calls your pfr and c-bet, he definitely isn't floating on you and probably isn't on a draw. Warpe's right, you'll eventually stack these guys if you hit a set or a draw, so just try to slow down after that flop call. If you know they're really tight, you can even check behind the turn with a draw on the board. Requires a solid read though.

[BobbySalami]

All very excellent points, I will have read and reread this post a few times and I see now some of the things that I can change should this situation arise again.

Thanks for the input, and hopefully I can plug this leak.

[holdin2]

Also don't forget the limpers who then called your PFR. If they're sticking around on that rag board...SET ALERT!

[Ugly Ed]

One thing I'll say is that when you have position and you are leading the betting the whole way and you get called on the flop and turn, and then the caller all of a sudden bets into you on the river, it's time to stop and think and give strong consideration to the possibility that your over-pair is no good.

Repost in agreement.

I know exactly what you are talking about Bobby. I have the same type of problems myself sometimes. And I have been seeing this type of play more right now. It can be very frustrating. I think with out a Read (andI am sure more often in Low-Stakes) it is almost impossible to logically make the best choice to Call/Fold/Raise the River here.

Reason I say this is that you have all the types of players that RiverMonkey mentioned.

Plus you have players that totally think their TP 8s TK is good.

There are some players that on Flop like that with a good draw. Like they Flop 4 to a Flush. Will make those calls for the Flush. Bad calls or not, they make them, cause they feel totally sure if they hit their Flush (even a little one). They will double up on you. Alot of times even if they dont get their Flush. After calling your bets and getting their $ out there. They dont want to let the Pot go so they attempt to steal it.

Some people may put you on a Bluff. Thinking you made a big PF raise with 2 big cards. Then if the board is all small cards they may figure you missed and are trying to buy the pot. So their bottom pair or if they made any pair on the River. They may think it is good. And make that Raise.

Some players will just flat out Bluff here. Thinking that a lot of people will fold to a Call/Call/Call/Raise.
----Which a lot of "Thinking" players will Fold. Most of the HHs I see here at FTR. When someone has a hand and is faced with a good sized raise. Unless they have a great hand. They are advised to Fold. A more experienced and "Thinking" player that has lost their JJs to a (stupidly) slow played AA. Will think like you and be scared of the River raise here.

The type of players I mentioned are bad players or at least making bad plays. Which there is a lot of at the low-stakes. So a lot of times you get the same River raise, or opponent makes the same plays with a hand you beat.

Like in the hand in your example. I would be likely to think my opponent was doing one of the stupid things I mentioned players doing. Which you probably would think to since you said you have been losing with your TT-QQ.

The reason why I would think that way is because. If I am your opponent in that hand and I have KK-AA. For sure I am going to make a big raise on that Flush Draw Flop. Hoping to take the pot right then. If you raise I move all-in. If you call the big raise. I can at least (unless your a total donk) figure your not on a Flush draw. So a "Thinking" player like yourself would better know where they were at in that hand against someone like me. You wouldnt know as much versus a weaker not as good of a player who doesn't know they shouldn't slow play KK-AA on a draw heavy board. So they just Check/Call. Which without a read would make the "Thinking" player believe his TT-QQ must be good. Since they know a hand that beats them should raise the draw heavy Flop.

Its players like your talking about that just Call,Call,Call then sometimes Raise. That give me the most trouble. I just have a hard time knowing where I am at in a hand. Their plays sometimes just dont make since.

Anyway sorry for the long post. It is just that I am struggling with the same problem and wanted to talk about it. So really at least at Low Stakes where I see this a lot. Without a Read (which is what you need here) I dont think it matters if you Call, Fold, or Raise in this situation. There really is no way to figure out if you will win or lose. They could have anything. Lately in these situations just to be on the safe side I Fold. And wait until I get a Read or for a better situation to showdown with my opponent.