Loosening up

[dzeanah]

Was playing at a table yesterday that was just rough. Raise big on AA, and someone with 2-4 will call and go all-in for their last $0.75 on the flop and crack you. Same with KK, AK, and the rest. If it was one player I wouldn't mind, but big raises PF against 4-5 callers is painful when one sucks out on you, and it seems like with enough callers someone almost always sucks out on you, or they will all fold if they miss entirely.

Noticed today that if I play tightly, some players with 90%+ V$PiP recognize c-bets instantly and often hit big hands with random crap when you hit top pair or 2 pair anyway. There seems to be a playstyle that goes something like "play low percentage crap, but play in a way that you pay off big when you hit, and bluff when it's +EV by playing as if your random crap hit." Turns out they get solid hands sometimes too -- the 10% is just hidden in the other 90%.

So, I've been tinkering with counterplay. Trying to see cheap flops with all pairs, suited connectors, plus the big hands like AK that generally don't play well in multi-way pots anyway. My betting here has been limp, check-call, check-call, and check-fold or check-reraise huge when I've got the nuts or think a player is weak.

So far this seems to eliminate a lot of the disadvantages of position as I'll just check-call until they slow down then take charge. It's hard to get paid when KK makes the nut straight, but most of the rest of the time it seems to work well. I can limp AK, hit an Axx flop, get raised, raise back, and bet the pot on each remaining street. When the board pairs I get credit for the flopped set (now a full house), and when I don't slow down for a suited board I seem to get credit for it as well.

I'm learning it's situational though -- calling stations still can't be bluffed, and playing this way against 2 players in a pot can be difficult if one simply won't fold if he's holding 44 that missed the board.

Any advice? Is there a better way to play a table that's just -EV for tight play?

Maybe my questions is really "what's a solid way to loosen way up when the situation calls for it?"

[LimpinAintEZ]

i think your getting a good handle on it - I play the small stakes NL tables the same way - When you have big pairs, you still need to raise, but i try to limp in with lots of hands - In the SB I love to limp in with J,4 type of crap cause when it hits the flop i get paid off big from the tight player who can't let go of his TPTK - I also get paid off because players see me playing a ton of hands and think i'm full of it...Its a delicate balance though - The variance can be tougher...But what i like is i have no problem letting go of marginal spots, nor do i get married to hands -

overall though, i would try to add this type of game style if i were you...You can't just go to being a loose player when your not used to it - but if you know how to use it, it can be pretty powerful...and it's more fun -

I tend to offset my looseness with the table - like at a loose aggressive table you don't want to call raises with SC's or J,4 kinda crap - But there are plenty of tables where you see 4 - 5 people limping in...loose passive tables are the best for this style -

I have also spent plenty of money just learning the balance there....it is fun, but temper it with a solid game mostly - your thinking and trying different stuff seems to be good though - I think you have the right idea for beating those players...almost like playing loose/passive with them is good, especially when you can outplay them post-flop...

[The Izebox]

Something that seperates a strong loose player from a weak loose player is AGGRESSION! Its fine to loosen up your starting hand requirements from the late position but any cards that you do play should be played agrresively.

If your post flop skills are good enough to outplay your opponents on the flop then you have the capablity to develop into a strong, profitable player. Some recommendations to change your game;

1. Limping into a multiway pot is fine, if youre in position. Dont limp from UTG with 56 suited and high face cards. Besides low-medium pocket pairs, fold drawing hands from the early position and raise your standard raise (4-5x bb +1 for each limper) with big face cards and high pocket pairs. Dont be scared to lose money with ak, you usually have the best hand preflop and with practice ak will become one of your premium money making hands.

2. Raise the pot with hands you do play from the late position (except for drawing hands such as SC's Ax suited, small pp). DONT limp with a hand like a6...if you want to play it RAISE IT! Anytime you see an ace with a-trash in a six-handed pot youre going to lose money.

3.If its folded around to you, raise the blinds EVERYTIME! At lower limits this cheap move will pay off big in table image.

Playing loose is fun and effective, so long as you mantain an aggressive style. Please dont be a limp-call fish. There is loose and there is bad. Even if this is making money at microlimits it wont be an effective style at middle limits.

[Werddown]

I say just stay slightly tighter in early position and looser in late position.

Always raise in late position if it hasnt been raised before you and you have any type of hand at all.

Limping AK is never good, and I dont really like limping pocket pairs in late position, even if its been limped around. Raising allows you to take control of the hand, and by keeping a loose image, its great for the metagame getting paid off when u actually do hit big.

Almost half of my profit at ring comes from my preflop raises, and taking the pot down with the continuation bet. The other half comes from when I raise preflop then hit the flop hard and stack somoene that cant let go of their hand, and just doesnt believe I have it.

Those are precisely the type of players you WANT staying in pots with you.

I think your main problem is that you are having trouble letting go of hands when its obvious someone else hit the flop really hard. Yeah, it sucks that they played that against you, but the percentages are still in your favor. The amount of times they DONT hit, combine with the amount of times you DO hit, as well as the times where you can c-bet and take the pot down vs 1 or 2 players, makes you money.

However, you cant make money if you dont let go of your marginal hands when people are showing alot of strength back at you, or if you continuation bet too many pots multi-way when theres a very strong chance that someone else hit the flop.

Work on recognizing when its likely somoene else has hit the flop on a big multi-way pot and you've missed. Also work on recognizing what type of hands people have when they play back at you. If someone makes a terrible play at you with garbage, take a note of it, and play on.

These are exactly the type of players you want playing with you.