Some Discussion on Super System

[martindcx1e]

So I was re-reading SS earlier (and it has been quite awhile) and came across something that caught me by surprise. Here's a quote from Doyle (pg. 421):

"As I said a little while ago, when a big pot's played...I've usually got the worst hand. I'd say over 50% of the time...when all the money goes in, I've got the worst hand."

WTH?!? Am I missing something here? I know his advice is supposed to be for tight high-stakes games - does that make this acceptible? Here's another quote on the subject of getting check-raised (pg. 436):

"It all reverts back to my basic style of play. My opponents know that if I've got any kind of a hand - any kind of a draw - and they do check-raise me...then all of my money (and theirs) is going in the middle. And...because they know that...it keeps them off me - it stops them from playing-back at me."

Is this acceptible against tight competition sort of like the BOW strategy Phil Gordon discusses in his Little Green Book? Is this kind of play acceptible due to a large enough bankroll? I don't know how these quotes flew over my head when I read SS before but they did. Anyone care to add to this?

[sunfunbunch]

I think I didn't read this book at first, because it was complicated and I was a newb.

However.... now that I have played for some time, I think I may be buying this.
Thanks for posting some quotes.

[martindcx1e]

Glad I could advertise lol. Anyone else?

[Laeelin]

He plays very very aggressively and picks up a lot of pots (well, when he played this way he did)

He was loseing money when he pushed and was called, but it also saved him money and won him money by making people scared to play back at him..

Basically, a move can be -EV in that hand, but +EV for your game.

[martindcx1e]

He plays very very aggressively and picks up a lot of pots (well, when he played this way he did)

He was loseing money when he pushed and was called, but it also saved him money and won him money by making people scared to play back at him..

Basically, a move can be -EV in that hand, but +EV for your game.

Ya I guess it's very similar to the BOW strategy now that I think about it more. Just need an adequate bankroll.

[WildBobAA]

He has mentioned in recent interviews that he doesn't play like this anymore because everyone figured out what he's doing.

[r8ed]

Is Gordon's book worth buying for NLHE? Any shorthanded info in there?

[Renton]

Is Gordon's book worth buying for NLHE? Any shorthanded info in there?

not really. Just go the the bookstore and skim through it at the cafe.

[gabe]

if he has a hand thats a lock 50% of the time, and a hand that is a 3:2 dog the other 50%, hes gonna make alot of money.

but most of the time he doesn't get called when he does his overbet allin, so even if he only has a lock 40%, he picks up enough pots to make up for and show a good profit

[RiverMonkey]

Have you been watching Doyle's play in the High Stakes Poker show on GSN? He hasn't been playing that way on those broadcasts at all! Why? Because of the competition; the way to exploit the competition he's up against is to play a tighter, more conservative style.

You really should treat that SS aggressive style as one of many gears that you need to have in your tool-kit. Doyle does the exact same thing.

[Fnord]

Doyle, Barry, Tod and Mimi Tran own that game. Freddy is kinda impressive too.

Daniel is playing like a total donk. I can imagine his stuff works against weaker players, but he's just getting owned by the stronger players.

[drmcboy]

total donk seems a bit strong. He has taken some tough beats along with some marginal calls.

I liked Phil's book. It is a little tough to tell in spots whether he's talking about tourney or ring play.

[Renton]

I think phil's KQ hand was precious

he looked so confident when he pushed all in with his top two pair

[Fnord]

total donk seems a bit strong. He has taken some tough beats along with some marginal calls.

There are some TERRIBLE calls in there and big over-bets with one-pair hands which give his opponents some nice implied odds against him.

[drmcboy]

well, OK, but take out the hand where Barry outdrew him to make the flush early and the Mimi one where she made the bigger straight and he's up for the game, so I'm not sure we shouldn't give him some credit for creating an image to get paid off.

I was a little puzzled at the hand he played against Harman when he called her down then folded some brick river.

[lolzzz_321]

In 12 Esfendari makes a great call on a Q10x board with Jacks against an all in rasie by DN. DN has K10... Turn blank...River K. GG. Esfendari also got two outted ai preflop by Eli AA vs JJ vs 1010(Helmuth), Jack on turn.

[dpe8598]

Doyle also said in the book that he can make moves when he is behind because of the extra money he makes taking down a lot of small pots. All in all, this gives him a super aggressive, hard to read style.

Also, I've also read that he doesnt play this way anymore in cash games.

[martindcx1e]

Have you been watching Doyle's play in the High Stakes Poker show on GSN? He hasn't been playing that way on those broadcasts at all! Why? Because of the competition; the way to exploit the competition he's up against is to play a tighter, more conservative style.

You really should treat that SS aggressive style as one of many gears that you need to have in your tool-kit. Doyle does the exact same thing.

Just learned about that show the other day. Sadly, I don't get GSN. I'm assuming the hyper aggressive style is suitable against tight opponents, until you loosen them up of course. Someone on pocket 5's posted a clip of the Hellmuth/Greenstein hand (KQ vs. QQ) and I thought it was priceless. That stupid thing Hellmuth does when he thinks he just induced a huge bluff with the greatest hand in the world and looks like he's going to puke all over the table while he's shoving his chips in makes me laugh every time. Definitely wish I had that channel. Anybody know if there are more videos from these games available?

[Fnord]

BitTorrent FTW!

[drmcboy]

I swear there was a post in Poker ETC with some guy who was burning DVDs but I can't find it. Do a search.

[martindcx1e]

BitTorrent FTW!

DUH! Thanks I completely forgot about almighty torrents.

[Greedo017]

i just saw the KT vs esfnadiari's JJ. he was gonna fold if daniel didn't open his fat mouth. and his play in the hand where he folded to harmon on the river was pretty lousy too

i will say, while esfandiari was thinking over calling, dn did say "hmm you've gotta have jacks" which was somewhat impressive

[Pingviini]

I swear there was a post in Poker ETC with some guy who was burning DVDs but I can't find it. Do a search.

There WAS a thread until I removed it.

[Pingviini]

I wasnt that impressed with SS2. The situations doyle subscribes are so generic that I just couldnt take his advice that seriously.

"It all reverts back to my basic style of play. My opponents know that if I've got any kind of a hand - any kind of a draw - and they do check-raise me...then all of my money (and theirs) is going in the middle. And...because they know that...it keeps them off me - it stops them from playing-back at me."
yeah well, remind me never to lead out with sets or top 2's.. especially when money is deep. He also just talks about sums of money but doesnt mention the amount in portions of the stacks or big blinds. Is there anything in the book that is worth a re-read?

as a side question: is jennifer's limit section good?

[dpe8598]

Ping, this has always been my theory about Doyles book. If you read his book, and that is the only book you've ever read, and you try to use that style, you will almost certainly lose a ton of money.

However, you are already a solid poker player and you are beating your game w/ good solid play, than his book can provide you w/ some aggressive strategies that can (but won't necessarily) put your game to the next level.

Personally, I don't use a system similar to Doyle's. However, on occasion, I change to it when the table calls for it. To me, this is what you can take from any book, strategies to implement in YOUR game when the time calls for it.

[moiraine57]

It's been awhile since I've read it, but Jennifer's limit section is decent. If you can't be bothered to read a whole book about limit, then her chapter is the next best thing.

She basically beats the drum of aggression, aggression, aggression.

[RiverMonkey]

Doyle, Barry, Tod and Mimi Tran own that game. Freddy is kinda impressive too.

I really like the way Freddy plays. I find him more unpredictable, buyt not too loose at the same time.

[martindcx1e]

Has anyone else been surprised at how amazingly loose the pre-flop play has been on that show? There is also way more calling (as opposed to raising) post flop than I expected with pairs with horrible kickers and stuff like that. Is it just me or is there alot of bad play on that show or is it just that poker eventually ascends to such a level where the play looks like .01-.02 fish again but they actually are playing super complex?

[dpe8598]

Martin, that what it looks like to me (at these complex levels play appears bad). I know that when I'm playing against people that I know are good and that I play against all the time we usually end up making weird raises and calls, because of all of the crazy thinking.

For example, if you just call his bet, and he knows you are a good aggressive player, maybe now he is thinking, "why is this pro just calling me". Does he have a monster, wait, he would know I would know he has a monster. He must be setting up a bluff. Wait, maybe he wants me to think that. and so on and so forth.

[Cava72]

I think someone has already touched on this subject in one of the responses...

My advice would be to read something like HARRINGTON ON HOLDEM VOL I & II...play what he preaches for a while, understand card selection and position...than read SS...use some of DOYLE'S style (which I believe works) but, take out the "hyper" in hyper aggressive. This has helped my game.

[Lodogg]

SS is not relevant to any lower stakes games. People call you down with all sorts of crap, so why get it all in just to get called most of the time. I had a guy call my higher than pot size all in bet last night with 8-4 suited and 1 card needed to a flush. Give me a break!!! Get a good hand, not a drawing hand, and drop the hammer.