Does VP$IP represent a range?

[paulwright]

Hi FTR, 1st post - and would like to send out the usual thanks to all the contributors that make this a sensational site for online NL players to improve their games.

I could not find a discussion on this topic - and wanted to get some thoughts...

Does a VP$IP represent a range of hands? Assuming you have ~200+ hands on an opponent and he has 17% VP$IP - can you ascertain his starting hands? What about 24%? Or <10%? It seems that small increments can be down to sample size - but suspect that at the smaller percentages that 3% blocks represent different starting hand selections?

Looking forward to your thoughts and discussion on this.

Once again - hi to all - and hope to post more in future...

PW

[dpe8598]

Be careful w/ this stat. Some guys won't play AJ offsuit ever, but they will raise w/ 23suited, so although it somewhat represents how many hands they play, without more info you don't know what kinds of hands they are.

HOwever, it does tell you something. I mean if their VPIP is very small, they are pretty tight.

[paulwright]

Thanks for the thoughts. I should clarify I was framing this on NL25-50 full ring. I realise there are no hard and fast rules - but looking for a profile on possible starting hands pf. Is there are better PT stat to use? Obviously if you see an opp show 23s then you can alter your profile of that player, if required, and put it in your notes.

[joshuadzl]

Lower the VPIP, tighter the player. Its really as simple as that. More clever the player, more tricky the hands.

[joshuadzl]

(to lazy to edit) with that said, at $50NL - just look at the VPIP and determine if they're tight or not and play off that.

[paulwright]

Thanks Josh,
Thinking I may have phrased the question poorly - or else the answer I am looking for doesnt exist because it doesnt make sense.
Just to clarify - accepted that ~20% VP$IP would represent a tight player - and less than that, say 17% may be a very tight player looking only at top 19 hands...
My question more relates to higher % - if a player has Axs in his quiver - his percentage will be higher - but at what point is it clear he is playing Ax or KT or similar. Assuming it is somewhere around 35% but wasnt sure if someone had put some study into this (the stats would be beyond me I am sure).
I would think >40% you just assume they are happy to limp with any 2 cards - but its the range between 20% and 40% I was looking to explore.
I am realizing this is a tough question given 'some' players play different hands in different positions - but I am after an overall profile of NL25-50 players - which may not be so disciplined. Thanks...

[joshuadzl]

I see what you're asking. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a definitive answer. Even if there was, it'd be difficult to apply.

Out of curiosity, what are you looking to improve with these statistics? Post flop play or preflop moves?

[paulwright]

Looking to improve post flop by making better decisions. I want to be aggressive - but smarter aggressive. If I can put a guy on a range (say including Axs) then I can work out how to maximize the hand.

Maybe from his VPIP I can work out he will start with KJ or KT - this might help me understand why he cold calls the K high rainbow flop. If from his higher VPIP I figure he plays Ax - then I am more comfortable with my AJ. So the smarter aggressive is how much to raise, or maybe call in anticipation of reraise on turn - and if I could establish a range of hands he may hold, then based on flop and his play, I can more accurately put him on his hand... Thanks for trying - appreciate it...

[joshuadzl]

Sounds to me you're already on the right track Paul.

[cardsman1992]

If it helps any, Axs and KT are definitely in my quiver. My VP$IP goes between 23-25%, lower than the 35% you suspect. I admittedly need to tighten up, though. My PFR% is 12%, so around half the pots I am in I am raising preflop.

When I play Axs and KT, though, I know what I am playing them for. Flushes and straights, most of the time. I don't get into huge messes with them and can drop them if necessary.


Just an example for you, man....

[paulwright]

Awesome - that really does take a big step to answering my question. Even though it is one example, it shows to me what a 25% VP$IP player may be holding. My estimation was clearly off (though I was including Ax) - but I can extrapolate out from there to Ax, Kxs to be a little over 30% I think... Thanks!

[neophyte]

I've been thinking about the exact same thing lately as well.

I was trying to figure out if there are unique percentages that map to a range of hands.

The problem is that people change their "playable hand" selection as their position changes.

You'd have to have enough hands logged to be able to look at positional stats to have a solid theory.

A rock is easier for example, say they are only playing 5% of the hands they are dealt.
For this player their VP$IP would be almost identical for every position, since every hand they play is good in all positions, and can assume they are playing AK-AQ, AA-99.

So basically the higher the average percentage, the more important the positional VP$IP stat is, not the average.

Hmmm.. now your making me really think. To bad i'm at work, can't open PT to see some data.

--neo

[paulwright]

I agree neo, and with a good sample size on an opponent, we could see the VPIP by position in PT. So the more hands we have the more reliable the profile.

Say its 17% in EP, and up to 25% in LP, average of 22%, then if we have a good profile on 25% VPIP we have a good chance to work out what possible starting hands he has.

So that means, in a way, position is kind of irrelevant to the argument if we can break it down to position. So hopefully that leaves this question open to try and correlate VPIP by position to likely starting hand range...

[renegaderob1]

My VPIP is 29% lately, but my PRF raise % is like 20% and my PRF reraise is 7%. I play at AP which is full of passive nits as Fnord would say.
I play 6max and hate playing unraised pots so I dont limp often.

Raise all suited connectors, AXs and all PPs from nearly all positions then cont. bet 1/2 - 3/4 of the pot.

KT, KJ, K9, Q9 etc are all in my range, but I only play/raise from late position unless they're suited in which case I may raise suited gappers.

Hope that helps, but I doubt it does as some days my VPIP is higher and some days it is lower and I still may play some of those hands with a VPIP of 15%...

[Pelion]

The problem is, different people will play different types of hands.

e.g. If you see a player with 24% VPIP, they could be playing any A and any 2 broadway cards, or they could be playing

AA-22, AK-AT, KQ, Any connectors.

The first player is probably a fish but the second player could well be a smart solid player.

Until you have seen them play a few hands you wont be able to tell the difference.

If you notice someone is generally TAG then you can definatly start to assign a range to 17%VPIP, or 4% VPIP, or any of the other standard sorts of numbers. By far the best way to get reads and ranges on people is to watch them play and use pokertracker stats as a suppliment to your own specific reads.

Pokertracker is no excuse to stop taking notes.

[biondino]

I have an early 20s VP when I'm playing relatively loosely for me, but I will NEVER play A8 or less, I'll only play A9 or AT on the button or SB in an unraised pot, I never play less than KJ or, very occasionally, QJ on the button. I do, however, play suited connectors, unsuited connectors and suited gappers in position if other conditions are also suitable, and I will always play all PPs.

[cardsman1992]

I don't play A-little off suit, but I play it suited ONLY for flush or straight value. I like A3s way better than A9o....but if an A flops I am careful. With no Flush or straight possibility I give it up to aggression.

A lot of times I fold A8o and A9o even in LP. Definitely fold it to a raise.

I don't play the lower connectors so much.

Is my thinking flawed? I have been on a massive downswing so maybe it is. I need to post some marginal hands.....

[jameseyb]

This may not be entirely relevent, but as a relative newbie, I try and keep the number of hands I play down to an absolute minimum, choosing only the hands I know I can play a nice tight, aggressive game with. ($25NL by the way)

PT says I am at about 16% VP$IP right about now, but the sample population is quite low. In some games I am higher, some lower I think 10% was the lowest I can remember for a sess and 25-ish% the highest, although I think I must have been given a lot of marginal cards in the first scenario and a lot of decent ones in the second to reach these two extremes.

Suited connectors are limp material and only from LP and if they are half decent. I really do not like Ax (low) as the flop is just too much of a minefield. Their ok to limp, but almost insta-fold when strength gets shown post-flop.

[Miffed22001]

I think you certainly have a point that VP$IP points to a range. I think though we need to also adopt the PFR stat to thsi to better undertand a players range.
Someone with a VPIP of ~20% and a pfr of less than 6 is basically on raising big pps and undominated aces/overcards. So in that case i think there is a case to put these people on cards pre/post flop. Of course a lot more players have PFR of 7+ more so in 6max, where i argue players have PFR of 12+. That doesnt denote a range so well as these players can be mixing any two into the mix here as noted above. Therefore i think you make a sensible point, that VPIP and PFR denote a range but i think PFR denotes a range better than VPIP does.