KK Raised PF, What do I do?

[djzcko]

Guys, a situation I ran into today and want to get your thoughts on it. $25NL full ring on PS: dealt KK in EP. UTG folds, I raise to $1 (I vary my pf raise of premium hands based on table texture to get most to fold...anywhere between 4-8 BB). EP2 calls and MP raises to $5. Folds all around and it's back to me. MP is a very loose pf caller (48% V$IP), likes to raise pf (18%) but plays very solid post flop. Most of his hands were taken down without a showdown but the two hands he did show down were premium (QQ and AK). Another note is that I did not see this guy make any donk moves so he seemed pretty solid other than his very loose pf standards. Do you fold KK or take him all-in? Results to follow in another post...

[buddha]

I wouldn't change my preflop raises, i mean if your table is calling everything then play solid and bump up your raises until you stop having 5-6 people every hand, but to me that just gives off tells. And i take him all-in, because say he was jj or qq, if he puts you on a hand think ak, aq then he might be just wanting to see if he can make you fold it instead of taking a race to the flop. But thats just how i would handle it.

[Miffed22001]

3 bet kk always.
If he comes back or wants to play for stacks then its upto you.
At 25nl i think its probably insta-call if playing for stacks.
If he turns AA then reload and forget it. It happens.

[Fnord]

This about sums up my thoughts on this...
POKERSTARS GAME #4145773821: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/03/01 - 23:36:29 (ET)
Table 'Eva V' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Dracula82 ($109.65 in chips)
Seat 2: DJ LMNTs ($99.35 in chips)
Seat 4: tyson219 ($110.95 in chips)
Seat 5: Jim-Cos ($65 in chips)
Seat 6: 4 Left! ($82 in chips)
Seat 7: Fnord ($108.60 in chips)
Seat 8: 4under ($180.05 in chips)
4 Left!: posts small blind $0.50
Fnord: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Fnord [Kc Kh]
4under: folds
4under leaves the table
Dracula82: calls $1
DJ LMNTs: raises $2 to $3 Oh noes! sTAgg is raising it up
tyson219: folds
Jim-Cos: raises $7 to $10 re-raise, must be Aces
4 Left!: folds
Fnord: raises $10 to $20 Can I make it any less obvious what my hole cards are?
Dracula82: folds
DJ LMNTs: folds
Jim-Cos: raises $45 to $65 and is all-in I told him exactly what I had, this must be Aces right?
Fnord said, "KK gl"
Fnord: calls $45
*** FLOP *** [4d 3h Qd]Fuck, now QQ sucked out!
*** TURN *** [4d 3h Qd] [Qh] AQ is g00t too
*** RIVER *** [4d 3h Qd Qh] [As] AK got there, nh sir
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Fnord: shows [Kc Kh] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
Jim-Cos: mucks hand WTF?!?!?! Jacks? Tens?!?!?
Fnord collected $131.50 from pot
Jim-Cos leaves the table
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $134.50 | Rake $3
Board [4d 3h Qd Qh As]
Seat 1: Dracula82 folded before Flop
Seat 2: DJ LMNTs folded before Flop
Seat 4: tyson219 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Jim-Cos (button) mucked [8c 8h] ROFLCOPTOR!
Seat 6: 4 Left! (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: Fnord (big blind) showed [Kc Kh] and won ($131.50) with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 8: 4under folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[Lukie]

Keeping with that theme.

POKERSTARS GAME #4270043784: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2006/03/12 - 23:21:44 (ET)
Table 'Weringia II' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: obiwanjm ($199.90 in chips)
Seat 2: PkrKitten ($301.90 in chips)
Seat 3: k0vacs ($165.55 in chips)
Seat 4: CelticFem ($55 in chips)
Seat 5: KarlSpakler ($235.55 in chips)
Seat 6: alessia_uk ($190 in chips)
Seat 7: Lukieplaya ($198.60 in chips)
Seat 8: axuu ($547.70 in chips)
Seat 9: TRUKILLA187 ($75.70 in chips)
Lukieplaya: posts small blind $1
axuu: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lukieplaya [Ad Ac]
TRUKILLA187: folds
obiwanjm: folds
PkrKitten: raises $4 to $6 solid
k0vacs: folds
CelticFem: folds
KarlSpakler: folds
alessia_uk: raises $4 to $10 Guy is fairly new to the table, no solid reads, but this raise should tell you all you need to know about him. I think. Players making this raise often have a big pair.
Lukieplaya: raises $30 to $40 I have aces, and you don't have odds to call for a set. Just fold...
axuu: folds
PkrKitten: folds
alessia_uk: calls $30 Yeehaw, I'ma stack this mofo.
*** FLOP *** [Kc Qh Jc]AWESOME flop
Lukieplaya: checks
alessia_uk: bets $30
Lukieplaya: calls $30considered just check/folding, but I have 6 clean outs with big implied odds. Plus I can't rule out AK and I'm ahead of that...
*** TURN *** [Kc Qh Jc] [8s]
Lukieplaya: checks
alessia_uk: bets $20wtf
Lukieplaya: calls $20
*** RIVER *** [Kc Qh Jc 8s] [4s]
Lukieplaya: checks
alessia_uk: bets $10WHAT THE, grrrrrr
Lukieplaya: calls $10
*** SHOW DOWN ***
alessia_uk: shows [Jd Qd] (two pair, Queens and Jacks)*sob*
Lukieplaya: mucks hand
alessia_uk collected $205 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $208 | Rake $3
Board [Kc Qh Jc 8s 4s]
Seat 1: obiwanjm folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: PkrKitten folded before Flop
Seat 3: k0vacs folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: CelticFem folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: KarlSpakler folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: alessia_uk (button) showed [Jd Qd] and won ($205) with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 7: Lukieplaya (small blind) mucked [Ad Ac]
Seat 8: axuu (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: TRUKILLA187 folded before Flop (didn't bet)[/b]

[Fnord]

You clearly should have bet the flop and raised his weak turn or river bet to "see where you're at." You should be ashamed of playing that hand so weak and passive. Drop down to 25NL before you call off your bankroll, GEEEEESH! You might have pushed him off his two pair on that board....

[Lukie]

same orbit.. but after the last hand....

POKERSTARS GAME #4270137955: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2006/03/12 - 23:29:09 (ET)
Table 'Weringia II' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: obiwanjm ($228.80 in chips)
Seat 2: PkrKitten ($263.90 in chips)
Seat 3: k0vacs ($161.55 in chips)
Seat 4: CelticFem ($55 in chips)
Seat 5: KarlSpakler ($235.55 in chips)
Seat 6: alessia_uk ($291.35 in chips)
Seat 7: Lukieplaya ($200 in chips)
Seat 8: axuu ($543.70 in chips)
Seat 9: TRUKILLA187 ($82.05 in chips)
k0vacs: posts small blind $1
CelticFem: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lukieplaya [Qd As]
PkrKitten said, "pocket pair"
KarlSpakler: folds
alessia_uk said, "i am wondering"
alessia_uk said, "ok"
alessia_uk: raises $2 to $4
Lukieplaya: raises $11 to $15
axuu: folds
TRUKILLA187: folds
obiwanjm: folds
PkrKitten: calls $15
k0vacs: folds
CelticFem: folds
alessia_uk: calls $11
*** FLOP *** [5s 2h Jc]
alessia_uk: bets $20
Lukieplaya: folds
PkrKitten: raises $20 to $40
alessia_uk: calls $20
*** TURN *** [5s 2h Jc] [2c]
alessia_uk: bets $20
PkrKitten: raises $40 to $60
alessia_uk: calls $40
*** RIVER *** [5s 2h Jc 2c] [6s]
alessia_uk: bets $40
PkrKitten said, "lol"
PkrKitten said, "what you catch?"
PkrKitten: calls $40
*** SHOW DOWN ***
alessia_uk: shows [Kd Ad] (a pair of Deuces)
PkrKitten: shows [Ac Ah] (two pair, Aces and Deuces)
PkrKitten collected $325 from pot

I think this guy folds bottom 2 (even on that board, even given preflop action) VERY rarely. Was very confident that the guy who smooth-called behind was much more of a concern to me then captain donkey. And that's not even taking position into account.

not a tilt play with the AQo 3-bet, just trying to isolate against his seemingly very loose pf range.

[Fnord]

I think this guy folds bottom 2 (even on that board, even given preflop action) VERY rarely.

Ummmm.... duh... but you still should raise to see where you're at....because.....well it always sounds good when someone else says it....yeah...that's the ticket...

[jackvance]

Awtch Lukie.. that's a lot of money flowing around. You seem pretty light-hearted about it, you must have some BR

@Fnord: your guy musta had JJ...?...

[Pingviini]

if he is too loose PF then try to get as much money in as possible. Do not always e-bet KK as somebody said.

"(I vary my pf raise of premium hands based on table texture to get most to fold...anywhere between 4-8 BB)." There is no such thing as table texture pre-flop.

[r8ed]

Guys, a situation I ran into today and want to get your thoughts on it. $25NL full ring on PS: dealt KK in EP. UTG folds, I raise to $1 (I vary my pf raise of premium hands based on table texture to get most to fold...anywhere between 4-8 BB). EP2 calls and MP raises to $5. Folds all around and it's back to me. MP is a very loose pf caller (48% V$IP), likes to raise pf (18%) but plays very solid post flop. Most of his hands were taken down without a showdown but the two hands he did show down were premium (QQ and AK). Another note is that I did not see this guy make any donk moves so he seemed pretty solid other than his very loose pf standards. Do you fold KK or take him all-in? Results to follow in another post...

OK, there are a million posts about NOT folding KK preflop. But I'm just going to put a couple thoughts out there. You have two options (folding isn't one of them):
1. Escalate this as far as he will go preflop.
2. Call to disguise your hand since you could be raising with Ax or a PP.

I like option 1 here because you say he is strong post flop. Make him put all his chips in now. If you choose option 2, you are putting yourself in a potentially tough situation. If an Ace falls, you have to seriously consider going into check/fold mode. There are many flops that can come out that look scary. He may be smart enough to push you off your hand. Also, if he has a hand like QQ and the flop comes out AK3 and you get aggressive, he may be smart enough to get away cheaply. If the flop comes out all unders and he's getting aggressive are you laying it down? I hope not. I wouldn't fold to any board that lacks an Ace. So, the chances of you getting it all in regardless are very high unless you are super weak. Put the tough decisions on your opponents and let them make the mistakes - not just with KK but in general.

[Miffed22001]

Lukieplaya: raises $30 to $40 I have aces, and you don't have odds to call for a set. Just fold...

I am not convinced this is anywhere enough of a preflop reraise.
The figure that immediatly came to my mind was 70-80.

Yes you probably killed odds, i just think more is better here.

[Renton]

Awtch Lukie.. that's a lot of money flowing around. You seem pretty light-hearted about it, you must have some BR

@Fnord: your guy musta had JJ...?...

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