On the subject of FLUSHES

[dreamover]

Im sitting at a .5, .10cent, No Limit table right now. Everybody is sitting on about $5 dollars, and there is one fellow with about $40.00.

I just watched him play from middle position a 4 10 of clubs. Hit a flush and suck out on somebody for 2 or 3 dollars. I have been playing ONLY Ax suited preflop with the intention of looking for the flush draw.

I've asked this question to a few players but can't seem to hit a concrete answer. What suited cards are worth playing to find the flush draws, and how do you bet them, where and when do you lay them down ? Im curious what the odds are, that when your on a flush draw with only 3 of it on the board, that there is somebody at a 10 seater on the same flush with better hole cards. Does anybody have charts on that ? How often is the 10 4 of clubs going to hold up post flop, do you selectively only play that with a few callers to better the odds ?

thanks in advance.

[bigred]

I think it's a good idea to keep in mind that this is $10NL and it sounds like most players arne't even deep stacked. Lack of deep stacks usually cuts down on your implied odds which actually decreases your want to open your range of suited/draw hands.

When I play, I will play Axs, suited connectors, suited gappers, and the occasional suited 2 gapper in late position. If your table lacks action (which i doubt in 10NL) you can also raise these hands in late to build up pots for when you hit and also take down a few pots and create a little action. Unless you're trying to make a move or a laggy player, I don't think 4Ts will be an effective hand to play.

[Blinky]

Hi dreamover.

Stop calling preflop or limping preflop simply because you have any two suited cards. Just stop. It's one of the biggest leaks for any beginning player.

You should be playing cards based on rank with suitedness as a very secondary consideration. For reference, the rough advantage that suited cards have over unsuiteds (say AKo vs AKs) is only about 2-3%.

I've asked this question to a few players but can't seem to hit a concrete answer.

The concrete answer is, there is no concrete answer. In general though playing cards simply because they're suited will generally cost you much money in the long run.

I would suggest weaning yourself from charts and learning that hand strength is highly relative... and stop playing suited hands solely cuz they're suited.

[strawman]

How often is the 10 4 of clubs going to hold up post flop, do you selectively only play that with a few callers to better the odds ?

I play a few 6 gapped suited to add some variety to my play, primarily 39, 4 10 and Q6. I play them if I can see a cheap flop. The types of flops I'm looking for have two to the flush or have three cards that fall within the gap. Ideally I'd like a combination of the two and I'd prefer not to see three connected to the high side or three to the flush. These hands can be played very deceptively when you hit and are easily tossed when you miss.

Overall I play a fairly tight game, so these holdings allow me to get a little more action coming my way after I show them down to the disbelief of my opponents. It's definately a gamble on my part since I do have to fold to a preflop raise more often than not and I'll miss the flop the majority of the time, however when it holds up it is usually a big pot and I may make a bit more with some of my other holdings as well.

[Rondavu]

A Flush draw has no natural implied odds. The only board that can make one for you is a board that scares your opponent. Therefore there's a serious reduction in future opponent action (implied odds) after your flush is made, and it rarely makes up for what you payed to chase it.

I play Ax and Kx suited in position with limpers in front of me. Otherwise I fold it like the plague. This was not always my policy. As I got better, and learned about implied odds, it became obvious to me. There are some exceptions, but they're read based.

When you have position with these hands, you can bet or raise healthy into weakness on the flop before your hand is made on a semibluff, since you have between 9-12 outs. This also conceals the fact that you're drawing, and your opponent may pay the pot after your flush is made.

Hands that have natural implied odds are...

-Low pocket pairs
-Dominating hands (AK over AQ)
-Weird mid connectors and gappers

[dannyd267]

Here's a good example of playing Ax suited in a pot that really grew after the turn. MattShoe said after that he hit the stright on the turn with a 4.8
I usually only play Ax suited if I can get in cheap and this example was perfect for me. The turn gave me a gutshot straight draw and the nut flush draw. I really wasn't looking to get the straight.
I really got priced in and had the odds to call. But, like I said, I got to get there cheap. If there was any bet on the flop, I would've been out of there.

***** Hand History for Game 3526066035 *****
0/0 Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) - Fri Feb 10 00:03:10 EST 2006
Table Table 65027 (Real Money) -- Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: browneyesgr ( $58.91)
Seat 2: bluff_orbust ( $4.40)
Seat 3: Mighty_Perch ( $39.60)
Seat 4: mattshoe ( $28.80)
Seat 5: emanual ( $16.40)
Seat 6: sf868 ( $25)
Seat 7: grant_07 ( $23.40)
Seat 8: Inesiite ( $8.50)
Seat 10: dannyd267 ( $16.72)
Mighty_Perch posts small blind (0.10)
mattshoe posts big blind (0.25)
sf868 posts big blind (0.25)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dannyd267 [ 3c, Ac ]
emanual calls (0.25)
sf868 checks.
grant_07 folds.
Inesiite folds.
dannyd267 calls (0.25)
browneyesgr calls (0.25)
Mighty_Perch calls (0.15)
mattshoe checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Th, 5s, 6c ]
Mighty_Perch checks.
mattshoe checks.
emanual checks.
sf868 checks.
dannyd267 checks.
browneyesgr checks.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 7c ]
Mighty_Perch checks.
mattshoe bets (0.75)
emanual calls (0.75)
sf868 raises (1.50) to 1.50
dannyd267 calls (1.50)
browneyesgr calls (1.50)
Mighty_Perch folds.
mattshoe raises (3) to 3.75
emanual calls (3)
sf868 calls (2.25)
dannyd267 calls (2.25)
browneyesgr calls (2.25)
** Dealing River ** : [ 8c ]
mattshoe checks.
Mighty_Perch: lol
dannyd267: dam
emanual checks.
sf868 checks.
dannyd267 bets (12.72)
dannyd267 is all-In.
browneyesgr folds.
mattshoe folds.
emanual calls (12.40)
emanual is all-In.
sf868 folds.
Creating Main Pot with $42.80 with emanual
Creating Side Pot 1 with $0.32 with dannyd267
** Summary **
Main Pot: $42.80 | Side Pot 1: $0.32 | Rake: $2.25
Board: [ Th 5s 6c 7c 8c ]
browneyesgr balance $54.91, lost $4 (folded)
bluff_orbust balance $4.40, sits out
Mighty_Perch balance $39.35, lost $0.25 (folded)
mattshoe balance $24.80, lost $4 (folded)
emanual balance $0, lost $16.40 [ 7d 4c ] [ a straight, four to eight -- 8c,7d,6c,5s,4c ]
sf868 balance $21, lost $4 (folded)
grant_07 balance $23.40, didn't bet (folded)
Inesiite balance $8.50, didn't bet (folded)
pocketswag balance $15, sits out
dannyd267 balance $43.12, bet $16.72, collected $43.12, net +$26.40 [ 3c Ac ] [ a flush, ace high -- Ac,8c,7c,6c,3c ]

[biondino]

A myth from above: suited cards are worth 2-3% more than the same cards unsuited IN TERMS OF WHICH IS MORE LIKELY TO WIN ANY GIVEN HAND. Where they differ is in the *amount* of money each is likely to win.

While flushes are easily spotted, and easily folded to, they are also often the stone cold nuts and bad players will bet into or, more likely, call bets aginst the nut flush often enough to make them considerably more profitable than the same cards unsuited. Being able to add flushes to pairs, two pair, sets and straights in your winning armoury makes a big difference.

The flip side of the coin is, as already stated, that it is VERY easy to overplay suited cards. A lot of people call bets with bad odds because they have found themselves with a flush draw; a lot of people play with substandard hands because they are suited, then carry on playing them even when their suitedness becomes irrelevant (for example, TKs on a Kxx rainbow board - you end up calling three bets and lose to AK when you'd have folded pre-flop if it had been unsutied).

After 35,000 recorded hands, my WORST in terms of loss per hand is AJs. Only one of my worst ten performing starting hands is off-suit. Makes you think, eh...

[strawman]

Here's a hand I loosened up with since my action was drying up.

Texas Hold'em $0.25-$0.25 NL (real money), hand #99,585,254
Table Binghamton, 8 Feb 2006 03:29 AM

Seat 1: blejjan ($3.65 in chips)
Seat 2: Sleepy Ace ($21.45 in chips)
Seat 4: xx Jace ($31.60 in chips)
Seat 6: noviagra ($15.35 in chips)
Seat 7: akatsuki_6r ($24.50 in chips)
Seat 8: Marcel_epi10 ($25 in chips)
Seat 9: alfil [8C,4C] ($43.70 in chips)
Seat 10: brynte ($24.40 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
xx Jace posts blind ($0.25).

PRE-FLOP
noviagra folds, akatsuki_6r folds, Marcel_epi10 folds, alfil calls $0.25, brynte folds, blejjan folds, Sleepy Ace folds, xx Jace checks.

FLOP [board cards 7C,QH,6C ]
xx Jace checks, alfil checks.

TURN [board cards 7C,QH,6C,5C ]
xx Jace checks, alfil checks.

RIVER [board cards 7C,QH,6C,5C,JC ]
xx Jace checks, alfil checks.

SHOWDOWN
xx Jace shows [ JS,9D ]
alfil shows [ 8C,4C ]
alfil wins $0.45

And as you can see, I still didn't get any action

[dreamover]

I think it's a good idea to keep in mind that this is $10NL and it sounds like most players arne't even deep stacked. Lack of deep stacks usually cuts down on your implied odds which actually decreases your want to open your range of suited/draw hands.

When I play, I will play Axs, suited connectors, suited gappers, and the occasional suited 2 gapper in late position. If your table lacks action (which i doubt in 10NL) you can also raise these hands in late to build up pots for when you hit and also take down a few pots and create a little action. Unless you're trying to make a move or a laggy player, I don't think 4Ts will be an effective hand to play.

Right, so I need to be very concious of the stack size of who I'm in against to play the flush draw it sounds like your saying. So that if I have to call a pot sized bet I can factor the implied odds of hitting and cashing out on them for their whole stack.

It does seem like this has been one of my most profitable hands online, although, I do not keep any acurate records which to refer to, I do have allot of memories of playing for the flush draw, seeing it, betting it lightly, getting many callers, finding the nuts, going all in, getting lots of callers and making a handsome sum on it. I think it's most profitable when there is ALSO an obvious straight draw on the board and somebody just does NOT want to let go of it, cant admit that they are beat. Hey, Ive been there.

[dreamover]

Hi dreamover.

Stop calling preflop or limping preflop simply because you have any two suited cards. Just stop. It's one of the biggest leaks for any beginning player.

You should be playing cards based on rank with suitedness as a very secondary consideration. For reference, the rough advantage that suited cards have over unsuiteds (say AKo vs AKs) is only about 2-3%.

I've asked this question to a few players but can't seem to hit a concrete answer.

The concrete answer is, there is no concrete answer. In general though playing cards simply because they're suited will generally cost you much money in the long run.

I would suggest weaning yourself from charts and learning that hand strength is highly relative... and stop playing suited hands solely cuz they're suited.

I understand ALL of that. Trust me I DONT currently play any two cards because they are suited, and I am very concious of rank, Im curious SPECIFICALLY about the nut flush draw and what to come in with preflop. Like I said, currently I will ONLY play the Ax suited, and look for the draw on the flop, find it, or dump the hand. Im curious on peoples opinions about playing the K high, and the Q high draw, and in what position. Clearly some people play these hands and are profitable with them, my question is, when do they play them and how do they play them ? On the button only ? Never ? Sometimes ? Why ? How do you bet a Q high flush ? or a K high flush ? How often is a Q high or K high flush up against the A flush ? Does anybody have odds on that ?

Thanks.

[dreamover]

A Flush draw has no natural implied odds. The only board that can make one for you is a board that scares your opponent. Therefore there's a serious reduction in future opponent action (implied odds) after your flush is made, and it rarely makes up for what you payed to chase it.

I play Ax and Kx suited in position with limpers in front of me. Otherwise I fold it like the plague. This was not always my policy. As I got better, and learned about implied odds, it became obvious to me. There are some exceptions, but they're read based.

When you have position with these hands, you can bet or raise healthy into weakness on the flop before your hand is made on a semibluff, since you have between 9-12 outs. This also conceals the fact that you're drawing, and your opponent may pay the pot after your flush is made.

Hands that have natural implied odds are...

-Low pocket pairs
-Dominating hands (AK over AQ)
-Weird mid connectors and gappers

Great, that makes allot of sense to me. So your suggesting to only play those hands IN POSITION. I.E. late position where there is less chance of being raised preflop. Your also suggesting if I hit the ace or the king on the flop I can semi bluff it, maybe take it down, and if not, I have allot of outs, now the opponent does not think Im betting a drawing hand and I can suck out. That makes really logical sense to me. Thanks for the advice !!!

[dreamover]

A myth from above: suited cards are worth 2-3% more than the same cards unsuited IN TERMS OF WHICH IS MORE LIKELY TO WIN ANY GIVEN HAND. Where they differ is in the *amount* of money each is likely to win.

While flushes are easily spotted, and easily folded to, they are also often the stone cold nuts and bad players will bet into or, more likely, call bets aginst the nut flush often enough to make them considerably more profitable than the same cards unsuited. Being able to add flushes to pairs, two pair, sets and straights in your winning armoury makes a big difference.

The flip side of the coin is, as already stated, that it is VERY easy to overplay suited cards. A lot of people call bets with bad odds because they have found themselves with a flush draw; a lot of people play with substandard hands because they are suited, then carry on playing them even when their suitedness becomes irrelevant (for example, TKs on a Kxx rainbow board - you end up calling three bets and lose to AK when you'd have folded pre-flop if it had been unsutied).

After 35,000 recorded hands, my WORST in terms of loss per hand is AJs. Only one of my worst ten performing starting hands is off-suit. Makes you think, eh...

Right so your saying that because when you hit them they are often the NUTS (i.e. no paired board). Then they are worth chasing as long as you are getting implied odds on the other peoples stacks because so often they will bet into it ? I find that what your saying is correct while I don't have any stats in front of me to back it up, my instinct is that your totally correct, being that they are played in position so they are not raised to often preflop and dumped when there is no draw on flop, and bets are only tendered or called when the implied odds are present. Right ?

[Blinky]

...
Im curious SPECIFICALLY about the nut flush draw and what to come in with preflop.

...
Im curious on peoples opinions about playing the K high, and the Q high draw, and in what position. Clearly some people play these hands and are profitable with them, my question is, when do they play them and how do they play them ? On the button only ? Never ? Sometimes ? Why ? How do you bet a Q high flush ? or a K high flush ? How often is a Q high or K high flush up against the A flush ? Does anybody have odds on that ?

Thanks.

I will generally only play the suited ace and will open-limp it from MP to LP if the table is fairly passive. This may be too loose (I play 25NL). In some cases I may raise (esp against loose/passive opps who tend to fold to a cbet). I am more likely to raise if I'm opening the pot from late position. In this case you're playing with position and with an Ace which puts you in ok shape unless the blinds picked up monster hands.

Generally don't play suited K or Q. The problem with these is that you're only playing for one hand, and IIRC even flopping a flush draw is unlikely (something like 12.5% or something).

I will fold most suited aces to any real preflop raise. Sometimes on some tables I've seen a minraise in EP followed by a bevy of callers - I probably call with the suited ace in this case. Playing for the flush like this works best on a looser table where there are many players that help finance your draw(s).

To your question about flush on flush, have a search in this forum for a previous post I made about flush on flush.