The joy of deep money and over-betting.

[Fnord]

Alright, since the stacks at Party got deeper some of you guys need a smack accross the face. Limit is a game of pushing around small edges until they build up to a nice chunk of change. No limit against poor players is about getting an edge and pushing it REALLY HARD. That means over-betting. Make a hand (cheap) and push it hard. Then watch them call/re-raise. It doesn't always work, but it's wicked profitable and beats the hell out of being sucked out on for anywhere near the right price.

Over-bet your big pairs pre-flop. Turns and rivers are for hands that need help so you don't want to play them with lots of money left behind.
Stop min-raising probe bets on the flop.
Drop the fucking hammer.

Draw cheap, make a hand and bet hard. This includes getting in at the right price with all sorts of crap from late position, we're not just talking sets here when the money is deep. Make a hand and drop the hammer.

{ edit: unsticky - the horse is dead }

[TylerK]

The important part:

Make a hand

Fo rizzle.

[lolzzz_321]

A9r33t, push it hard guys, put the A in TAG.

[Xianti]

Amen.

[TheDoc]

I'll add to what fnord said, and say this. Take control, and isolate. Late position you can get away with playing all kinds of crap. I'm raising late position if there's no raises with anything from suited connectors to unsuited gapped cards. The key is to sniff out weakness and pound away, and sooner or later you will have that golden flop and someone will pay you off good since you've built up a nice stack from picking up a bunch of small pots uncontested. Also I'm pretty much raising the same exact amount everytime. 4x no matter what position. Early position I'll limp in with drawing hands and high cards (will fold mediocore high cards to big shows of strength) and raise 4x with big pairs and ak/aq/aj (probably 88 and up then rely on post flop play to guide me home from there). That's just my .02$

[r8ed]

The problem is if you keep betting 4x preflop and then flop nothing except good cards for your opponents and have to fold, you are dwindling your stack consistently. Then when you get a good hand and push hard on the flop, they fold. So, you are losing more than usual on your crap hands and winning less than usual on your good hands.

If you keep getting good cards, this works. But if you keep getting marginal hands, you just watch your stack fall and have to rebuy.

This has happened to me. I win a bunch of small pots when everyone folds on the flop. Then watch the profits from those go away on one hand where I bet big preflop and flop and then either push and lose, or fold.

This is why I like tourny's better than ring. You can steal blinds that are atually worth something whiile you wait for your monster to arrive.

Note to $25NL players. Bet the blinds as if they were still .50. So, 4XBB = $2. $1.50 doesn't even get respected.

[jmontis]

^^ this has to do with table image, cash games != tournaments, and the play style is MUCH different.

it's all about being aggressive, gambling within your means, and taking stabs when people don't want to be stabbed.

[Fnord]

Stealing blinds is a waste in many of these games. They call too much. So make a hand and watch them make their favorite mistake. Don't let them off easy with just a bad call when they're willing to make a truely terrible call.

[Funky]

everything ive paid to learn from pp in the last 2 mo, summed up in one post... well done

[dalai007]

Nice post. The only thing I care about when I play is maximizing profit. Thats it. Each table/situation may call for a different strategy to maximize win rate. So while "dropping the hammer" is a good idea in a lot of cases with multiple LAG players/fish...IMO it might not be right for all cases. Case in point:
Last night Im at a table for 20 min and get a good feel on most of the players. I limp late with K8s and four see the flop. Unfortunately the two LAGGY weak players folded. I flop the nut flush. Great now I want to maximize profit. It checks to me. IMO if I drop the hammer here I win 0.75. I check Q (diff suit) falls on the turn UTG bets $2 fold fold to me I call figuring he hit his queen/two pair or is just trying to buy the pot. If I raise here I feel he will fold. River is blank. He bets 1$ and I value bet it to 3 trying to maximize profit. He calls after a long pause with two pair and I drag a modest pot. My point is once you get a feel for the table/players dropping the hammer might not be the most profitable play. Each hand is a whole new ballgame and needs to be played accordingly.

[lonnie]

Drop the fucking hammer.

I'm sure Fnord is not referring to dropping the fucking hammer when you flop the nuts.

My experience playing NL at Pacific - if they've got a 4 flush or an OESD - they will call. So when you flop TPTK or 2 pair....bet it up. They will call with their big draws no matter what the bet.

Turn their small mistake into a monumental one by overbetting the pot.

Having said that, once you feel certain that they've made a hand...don't put another friggin dime in the pot. Cut bait and wait for your next shot. That's why I much prefer "dropping the fucking hammer" from position. When the fish finally make their straight or flush on the river, they check it to you, as if you are foolish enough to put another bet in. I love checking behind a check-raise setup when the scare card hits.

"DROP THE FUCKING HAMMER" - that is a really fun phrase.

[Element187]

Nice post. The only thing I care about when I play is maximizing profit. Thats it. Each table/situation may call for a different strategy to maximize win rate. So while "dropping the hammer" is a good idea in a lot of cases with multiple LAG players/fish...IMO it might not be right for all cases. Case in point:
Last night Im at a table for 20 min and get a good feel on most of the players. I limp late with K8s and four see the flop. Unfortunately the two LAGGY weak players folded. I flop the nut flush. Great now I want to maximize profit. It checks to me. IMO if I drop the hammer here I win 0.75. I check Q (diff suit) falls on the turn UTG bets $2 fold fold to me I call figuring he hit his queen/two pair or is just trying to buy the pot. If I raise here I feel he will fold. River is blank. He bets 1$ and I value bet it to 3 trying to maximize profit. He calls after a long pause with two pair and I drag a modest pot. My point is once you get a feel for the table/players dropping the hammer might not be the most profitable play. Each hand is a whole new ballgame and needs to be played accordingly.

thats why you are picking up a ton of uncontested pots.. eventually the fish will pick up on this and start chasing you down, and your big hands get paid off.

[ender555]

Fnord do you find it profitable to bluff? ever?

[Fnord]

Fnord do you find it profitable to bluff? ever?

There are two kinds of "bluffing"...

Bluffing because you think the other guy doesn't have much and you may even have more nothing than the other guy.

Bluffing because you think you can push someone off a hand.

I rarely do the later and always have a read when I do it. It's just not often profitable when most players call too much.

[dstir2]

after reading the revision of the "holy bible" of poker, SuperSystems 2, I soaked up the guidance Doyle Brunson had to give in the realm of NL, and began implementing this similar style of play into my approach. This involves playing suited connectors, especially when facing a stiff raise that would represent a possible high pocket pair. As long as you thought you could break the other raiser, Brunson said, its worth the call, as long as its worth no more than 10 % of your stack. this includes raising, if in late position with the same kind of cards, if there have been all limpers. The problem is that yes, if you hit a golden flop, you will win a good amount of jack most of the time. But the number of particular flops needed to beat or outdraw a higher pair is very small. After implementing this strategy for a long enough while to fairly evaluate it, I can say that while I have won 2-3 huge pots by doing this, in the long run I have lost money by calling with too many outmatched hands hoping for the "golden flop." If you get it, good for you, if you don't, that's what is expected. Remember that poker is not about catching golden cards and exploiting them. It's about solid play that gradually, not over hours, but weeks and months, leads to a substantial bankroll increase. I try to look at it as this: In the long run, your bankroll is affected by which cards you fold, not the ones you play.

after reading the revision of the "holy bible" of poker, SuperSystems 2, I soaked up the guidance Doyle Brunson had to give in the realm of NL, and began implementing this similar style of play into my approach. This involves playing suited connectors, especially when facing a stiff raise that would represent a possible high pocket pair. As long as you thought you could break the other raiser, Brunson said, its worth the call, as long as its worth no more than 10 % of your stack. this includes raising, if in late position with the same kind of cards, if there have been all limpers. The problem is that yes, if you hit a golden flop, you will win a good amount of jack most of the time. But the number of particular flops needed to beat or outdraw a higher pair is very small. After implementing this strategy for a long enough while to fairly evaluate it, I can say that while I have won 2-3 huge pots by doing this, in the long run I have lost money by calling with too many outmatched hands hoping for the "golden flop." If you get it, good for you, if you don't, that's what is expected. Remember that poker is not about catching golden cards and exploiting them. It's about solid play that gradually, not over hours, but weeks and months, leads to a substantial bankroll increase. I try to look at it as this: In the long run, your bankroll is affected by which cards you fold, not the ones you play.

Doyle Brunson's advice is against super-tight players in big money games. Against super loose players you find on the internet it doesn't quite work out.

[evilevilmatt]

Removed, due to worthlessness of post. sorry ::shame::

[Ayodeji13]

I must say... I dropped the hammer 2day....and it works like a charm


fuck trying complex plays against unknown drawing fish

K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Stupid)

[bunthorne]

The most difficult thing I find is trying to get players to fold early. Most of the fish love potential (flush draws, OESD, ISD) and won't let these go pre-flop. Say I've got a big pair, I want to decrease the field so that I have one or at most two callers, so I put in a decent raise, but more often than not I end up with three or four callers, and then one of them hits their flush, straight or two pair.

These days if I find a table full of fish, I usually remove myself from it. The combined strength of six or seven other fish is too much!!!!

[Seabass]

If you are getting 3 or 4 callers you aint raising enough, are you!?

If I find a table full of fish, I'll stay, the combined money of six and seven fish looks real cute in my br.

[mpc2323]

the hammer dont work against fishes. I once flop 2 pairs with the board showing 2 hearts... knowing the fish would call any bet with his flush draw i went all in (125$) he calls with his k6 suited and catches his flush on the turn. He takes 267$ and I go down kicking my head!!!! sucks when u get fucked like that!!!!

[sandstorm]

the hammer dont work against fishes. I once flop 2 pairs with the board showing 2 hearts... knowing the fish would call any bet with his flush draw i went all in (125$) he calls with his k6 suited and catches his flush on the turn. He takes 267$ and I go down kicking my head!!!! sucks when u get fucked like that!!!!

That would be exaclty what you want him to do. You WANT him to call with his flushdraw and he did. Don't focus on specific results, if they keep calling they will give you their money.

[aleksandr]

The most difficult thing I find is trying to get players to fold early. Most of the fish love potential (flush draws, OESD, ISD) and won't let these go pre-flop. Say I've got a big pair, I want to decrease the field so that I have one or at most two callers, so I put in a decent raise, but more often than not I end up with three or four callers, and then one of them hits their flush, straight or two pair.

These days if I find a table full of fish, I usually remove myself from it. The combined strength of six or seven other fish is too much!!!!

If you read up earlier, then Mr. Brunson said that you shouldn't call with sooters if it's more than 10% of your stack. If you have serious trouble with fish, try betting a very significant amount - like 7-10% of an average table stack. This will commit any callers and give a very strong read on your opponents - people respect $8.00 raises.

[Be Great]

Alright, since the stacks at Party got deeper some of you guys need a smack accross the face. Limit is a game of pushing around small edges until they build up to a nice chunk of change. No limit against poor players is about getting an edge and pushing it REALLY HARD. That means over-betting. Make a hand (cheap) and push it hard. Then watch them call/re-raise. It doesn't always work, but it's wicked profitable and beats the hell out of being sucked out on for anywhere near the right price.

Over-bet your big pairs pre-flop. Turns and rivers are for hands that need help so you don't want to play them with lots of money left behind.
Stop min-raising probe bets on the flop.
Drop the fucking hammer.

Draw cheap, make a hand and bet hard. This includes getting in at the right price with all sorts of crap from late position, we're not just talking sets here when the money is deep. Make a hand and drop the hammer.

hmm...WICKED profitable? you from the boston area fnord?