Drawing for inside-straight

[kabell]

Most often I have heard the advice: don't draw for an inside-straight.

But! Say I hold 87o and the flop now is 45A rainbow. There is 6 PF callers, a guy bets and 2 calls - I'm last to act.

Now the pot is 9 SB and I have to put in one. As I see it, I now have 4 outs to a strong hand, which is very little of course. But as I have understood my odds for getting that 6 is 1 to 5.06. So, if I call here, I do a correct call, as my bet is 1 to 9.

If the turn is blank, same guy bets one other guy call, the pot now has 14 SB. I have to put 2 SB, which is 1 to 7 - here my odds for getting the 6 is 1 to 10.5, which means I should fold.

Is this understood correct?

- Kabell

[EricE]

A 4 outer is 10.5:1 against hitting with one card to come. To call the turn bet you need to be getting 10.5:1 odds (or better) on your bet (it will come in 1 in 11.5 times). Same for your river bet.

A 4 outer is 5.25:1 against hitting with two cards to come but you can’t use those odds to evaluate your call on the turn unless it puts everyone All in.

[chardrian]

Ummm - on a general basis yes. The problem I have with this outlook is that you are giving yourself odds on the flop of making your hand by the river; i.e. it assumes that you will get a free card on the turn, which we know doesn't always happen. If you have position and are confident that everyone will check to you on the turn than yes a call on the flop is a good play. If you are not so sure about that, than I think it is better to think of your odds on each street - e.g. you have a 1 to 10.5 chance to hit your 6 on the turn and if it doesn't hit you have a 1 to 10.5 chance to hit your 6 on the river as well.

[kabell]

A 4 outer is 10.5:1 against hitting with one card to come. To call the turn bet you need to be getting 10.5:1 odds (or better) on your bet (it will come in 1 in 11.5 times). Same for your river bet.

A 4 outer is 5.25:1 against hitting with two cards to come but you can’t use those odds to evaluate your call on the turn unless it puts everyone All in.

Thanks.

But then I don't understand why you always see pot odds charts with both a "turn and river to come" and a "river to come" column. What use do you have for "the turn and river to come" column, when what's you use in practice is the "river to come" column?

And a last question: Does that mean, that it's always correct to call when I get better ods in the "river to come" column than the pot? (asuming I don't see the posibillity for a better hand, of course).

EDIT: of course I mean when I get better odds for making the hand than what I need to bet - i.e. I have a 1-3 chance of making my hand, and the call is 1-6.

[kabell]

Ummm - on a general basis yes. The problem I have with this outlook is that you are giving yourself odds on the flop of making your hand by the river; i.e. it assumes that you will get a free card on the turn, which we know doesn't always happen. If you have position and are confident that everyone will check to you on the turn than yes a call on the flop is a good play. If you are not so sure about that, than I think it is better to think of your odds on each street - e.g. you have a 1 to 10.5 chance to hit your 6 on the turn and if it doesn't hit you have a 1 to 10.5 chance to hit your 6 on the river as well.

Yeah, I see your point. Pod odds is about always thinking "what's my chance of winning when i place _this_ bet". Or what?

[kabell]

I have tried some searching, but haven't really been able to find the information I want. Isn't there some "Grand Pot Odds"-post somewhere?

[EricE]

A 4 outer is 10.5:1 against hitting with one card to come. To call the turn bet you need to be getting 10.5:1 odds (or better) on your bet (it will come in 1 in 11.5 times). Same for your river bet.

A 4 outer is 5.25:1 against hitting with two cards to come but you can’t use those odds to evaluate your call on the turn unless it puts everyone All in.

Thanks.

But then I don't understand why you always see pot odds charts with both a "turn and river to come" and a "river to come" column. What use do you have for "the turn and river to come" column, when what's you use in practice is the "river to come" column?

And a last question: Does that mean, that it's always correct to call when I get better ods in the "river to come" column than the pot? (asuming I don't see the posibillity for a better hand, of course).

EDIT: of course I mean when I get better odds for making the hand than what I need to bet - i.e. I have a 1-3 chance of making my hand, and the call is 1-6.

You can use the “river to come” column for the turn since it is almost the same. Almost because on the river one more card is know than we had on the turn but that one card doesn’t change the odds that much. The “turn and river” to come can be used when you think you will get a free turn (all players check).

Yes, it is correct to call as long as that hand that you are drawing to will win the pot and the pot is laying you odds. Gutshots (inside straights) rarely have pot odds. Pot odds to draw to a gutshot comes along once in a blue moon (in NL). I fold out gutshots most every time unless you have other draws to back it up.

You didn’t say if you were playing Limit or NL. Limit will lay you odds far more often than NL.

Another thing to think about is implied odds. Implied odds are somewhat nebulous because they are the bets you expect to come if/when you hit your draw. Since they are future bets…you are just guessing based on the type of opponents you are against and the general aggressiveness of the table. An example will better explain this. You call a PFR of 3xbb with your 55. Your 55 will hit a set on the flop only 12% of the time so you didn’t have odds to call the PFR (and you don’t expect your 55 to hold up unimproved). It is OK to call because both you and your opp have full 100bb stacks (important) and if you hit your set on the flop you think you can take his whole stack. That is an example of implied odds.

[TLR]

The 'turn and river' column is good for all in cases.
For example in NL if you push your entire stack you will see both the turn and the river for the same price. same if all opponents are AI.