Be brutally honest if you will........

[Seasider]

So here is one of my losing hands that I have been thinking about recently, I can't decide who played badly me or the guy who took my money! Lost the hand history sorry.

Anyway game is $25NL on Paradise. I am in late position and limp my suited connectors and flop the nut straight in final position. BUT there are three spades on board. About 5 of us looking at flop, unraised pot (should prob have raised it myself?)

First guy checks, second guy is short stacked with about $10 and bets $6 it folds to me.

I think about this and decide there is no way someone is going to open up with a 60% of their stack bet when they know they have the nuts and will prob get no action. I rule out big pockets as no raise pre flop (not that that bothers me at this point) and put him on two pair or trips at best, poss with a 4 card flush draw. So raise him all in.

Quick call and sure enough he flips over Q7 spades and doubles thru against me

My qusetion is would any of you have made this call or am I missing something fundamental? The only mistake I can see in my play is giving this guy too much credit he clearly just looked down saw a big hand and went into bet mode. I have added a postit to my monitor saying 'they are telling you what they have' but am worried players will just start walking all over me!

Sorry if this should be in bad beats.

[spino1i]

If its a limped pot, that means that with 5 people in, the pot should be about $1.25 right?

So if he bets 6$ he's overbetting the pot by over 4 times right? That to me is the sign of someone who's got something big.

Straights on a 3-flush board arent so great. I would have folded after he made that giant overbet as he was probably trying to protect his flopped flush, so that no one with A or K of spades could see a turn or river card.

Also, this should be in the hand history forum (but not in the bad beats forum lol), since thats the forum where we go over specific hands.

[BiloxiMS]

That totally depends on the table read.

I love players that try and quantify every bet and hand into a little mathematical formula...

[adjusts glasses on nose] If I play this hand against that hand, I will win 35.742778492 percent of the time [adjusts pocket protector]



The biggest pot I ever won was calling through a moron with my pocket 9's when the board had a K and a Q on deck. He had a distinct pattern of overbetting when he drew short (in this case, missed a gut shot straight) and I busted him on it for mucho dinero with a very weak hand given what the table was showing.

Anyway, regarding combating the dirty flush, don't sweat it man. It's burned us all. And we've also burned others with it. There is an element of luck to this game after all. Hell, I have no problem getting beaten by a flush, but man, losing to a kicker gets my blood pressure up.

Whenever there are 3 suits on deck, you HAVE to consider that someone is flushed. This is where your read comes in.
Did they limp in but then their betting got aggressive after a seemingly raggy (but suited) flop?

When I play through with a suited pocket and happen to flop 2 matching suits, I always check or call- never get excited and bet. I make sure I cannot be read for a flush until it's too late.

Even if I catch a full flush on the flop or on the turn, i'm either betting light trying to get people committed into the pot for a post-river knockout or just calling. If the player shows a pattern of raising, i'll even check him after the river, knowing he'll try to steal the pot with an overbet and then nail him with a monster stack.

[BIGandRICH]

I think if he's betting hard on the flop he probably does have the hand, given that theres 5 seeing the flop.. its a pretty risky bluff to make.

I usually see people representing flushes on the turn or river when the 3rd card shows. because by then you have some idea of what else other people have. Its a much safer bluff.

From where you were, I probably would have folded. In a limped pot you've only risked 25c, better to leave it there and wait for a better hand. I'd rather have 2 pair or trips to call that down, that way you atleast have some outs to beat him. If he has the flush a straight is drawing dead. Aswell, though there wasnt in your case, if theres some other callers then trips and 2 pair and flushdraw are the likely callers, so theres alot of cards in the deck that weaken you further.

Bottom line.. knowlegde of that particular player and whether thats what he would do if he flopped flush

[Sed]

With that flop, the multiway limped pot, and the big overbet. I let it go... If he were to throw out a 1/2 pot to pot sized bet in position, I would raise that to see if he was just full of it. That big of an overbet is not worth gambling with especially since if you are behind you have no redraws...

-sed

[evman150]

No sense getting broke in a crap pot. Let it go.

[a500lbgorilla]

I think about this and decide there is no way someone is going to open up with a 60% of their stack bet when they know they have the nuts and will prob get no action. I rule out big pockets as no raise pre flop (not that that bothers me at this point) and put him on two pair or trips at best, poss with a 4 card flush draw. So raise him all in.

You're over thinking. They can and will bet 60% oif their stack and hope for action. They don 't expect anything.

-'rilla

[biondino]

Yup. A good 50% of players at $25NL do this.

There are a few decent players, say 1 in 20 at this level, who makes big bets WITHOUT HAVING A HAND. They usually take it down, thanks to the mentality of the 50% above. So my rule (and one I am *terrible* at sticking to) is that if a player at $25NL - one I have not identified as a big bluffer - raises strongly to an even moderately dangerous card, THEY ARE NOT BLUFFING. They have trips, a flush, a straight, full house or quads, maybe occasionally two pair at a push.

Believe me, the 5-10% of the time you're wrong and they're bluffing will be negligible compared to the amount of cash you're throwing away if you call/push each time.

(of course, if you have the nuts, then enjoy the inevitable de-stacking)

[m3laNcholy]

You just dont care about this $1.25 pot, really. Let him have whatever he wants, or let him think he pulled out a big bluff with nothing. If so he will try it again later and you are gonna say "hmm I think I will call..." and take his stack.

Usually though, the do have the nuts when they do that.
I once flop an Ace high flush from the BB pot was $4 or sth (NL 100) I check it goes check check check. By the river the pot is a whooping $8....
I really dont care about value betting or stuff like that at this pot so I bet $60...some one called.

Bottom line is, like said above, you just dont care. Let him drag that gigantic 2 dollar pot away.

[DimitriT]

I think he played right..

The Q is a very vulnerable flush. Anyone holding the K or A will be on the draw so he needs to protect his hand.

Unless you hold the K or A, I would never make this call.

[Rondavu]

Bottom line is you didn't consider any reason why an overbet could be a flush. Often it is the vulnerable one protecting itself.

Don't beat yourself up over it. You just screwed up.

As for a sticky on your computer that says "They bet what they have", it sounds dangerous. Who is "they"? Don't make the mistake of clumping your opposition into one category. It's all about reads and people. If you just assume everyone is tight, then you'll be in trouble. And what is it that "they" have? Is it a flush draw or a straight draw they're betting? They have it, but it's unmade, so go over the top of it with anything. If you can put people on draws, then you can make a lot of money off them. Subsequently, if you bet your draws, you can make a lot of money off timid players who fold second pair when you're drawing.

I don't bet what I have. I bet what you don't have. If I bet what I have every time, then I miss out on a lot of opportunities.

[Seasider]

cheers for the replies guys. From the replies (1 person agreed with my move!) I guess I was looking at it pretty wrong, I didn't consider a small flush would want to scare of the big face spades. I also need to start thinking about what is invested in the pot before pushing.

I may try using the big overbet myself when i flop HUGE to see if it can pay me back some! I think partly it challenges peoples egos into calling; and you only need to be called every so often to make it pay as well it mixes up your table image a bit.

Also by 'they' I just mean all the idiots who just arn't functioning at my zen like poker level (Kidding) But on a serious point that is part of the reason I like Paradise there is a small group of players who seem to stick to their levels and times so you can get pretty good reads on a few players.

[Seasider]

Anyway a hand I got last night that brings the post full circle! Especially like this hand as I think I played my cards pretty well and hurt someone for bad play!

Game #876545909 - (blinds $0.10/$0.25) No Limit Texas Hold'em -
2005/06/27-13:02:20.9 (CST)
Table "Kalao" (real money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: Votives ($46.40 in chips)
Seat 2: Corona08 ($42.65 in chips)
Seat 3: frankiemozz ($27.83 in chips)
Seat 4: ME ($27.02 in chips)
Seat 5: MattBB ($23.36 in chips)
Seat 6: fredmercury ($27.55 in chips)
Seat 7: Phoenix1010 ($47.43 in chips)
Seat 8: Bebsy1 ($6.21 in chips)
Seat 9: larry369 ($11.45 in chips)
Seat 10: corbor606 ($25.00 in chips)
fredmercury: Post Small Blind ($0.10)
Phoenix1010: Post Big Blind ($0.25)
Dealing...
Dealt to ME [ 2h ]
Dealt to ME [ Ah ]Bebsy1 : Fold
larry369: Fold
corbor606: Fold
Votives : Fold
Corona08: Fold
frankiemozz: Fold
ME: Call ($0.25)MattBB : Call ($0.25)
fredmercury: Call ($0.15)
Phoenix1010: Check
*** FLOP *** : [ 7h Th 9h ]
fredmercury: Bet ($0.80)
Phoenix1010: Fold
ME: Call ($0.80)
MattBB : Call ($0.80)

If he was happy to bet I was happy to call, let someone else catch and see if Matt was going to try and buy it.

*** TURN *** : [ 7h Th 9h ] [ Kc ]
fredmercury: Bet ($1.30)
ME: Raise ($2.60)
MattBB : Call ($2.60)
fredmercury: Fold

Thought I could use the K as a bit of a smokescreen I didn't have one so hopefully someone else would!


*** RIVER *** : [ 7h Th 9h Kc ] [ Jc ]
ME: Bet ($4)
MattBB : Call ($4)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $17.05 | Rake: $0.85
Board: [ 7h Th 9h Kc Jc ]
Votives didn't bet (folded)
Corona08 didn't bet (folded)
frankiemozz didn't bet (folded)
ME bet $7.65, collected $17.05, net +$9.40 (showed hand) [ 2h Ah ] (a
flush, ace high)
MattBB lost $7.65 [ Kd Ks ] (three of a kind, kings)fredmercury lost $2.35 (folded)
Phoenix1010 lost $0.25 (folded)
Bebsy1 didn't bet (folded)
larry369 didn't bet (folded)
corbor606 didn't bet (folded)