Kx suited reevaluation

[journey075]

started playing this hand tonight and got great results. i think im going to start limping in lp. true its not the nuts, but its not any different than having KQs and hitting the flush. how worried are you about the A high flush with that kind of hand?

i think its a profitable long term hand to incorporate it into my play. well, we'll find out anyway.

[Irisheyes]

I find that what you say is true, you can win a lot with Kxs.

However, when you do come across someone with the A high, and I'm sure you will, unless you can make a very good read of the situation your gonna loose big time. So I suppose it comes down to whether you tink all you do win will make up for the time you loose.

I like to limp it in fron the SB and on the button only.

[a500lbgorilla]

started playing this hand tonight and got great results. i think im going to start limping in lp. true its not the nuts, but its not any different than having KQs and hitting the flush. how worried are you about the A high flush with that kind of hand?

i think its a profitable long term hand to incorporate it into my play. well, we'll find out anyway.

Talk about a tiny sample size.

Axs is barely profitable for me, why even bother with Kxs unless I feel like mixing it up?

Flushes suck, it's difficult to get paid off with them. What sucks even more is pairing your K time and again and folding to overt aggression or having your kicker beat at showdown.

-'rilla

[journey075]

started playing this hand tonight and got great results. i think im going to start limping in lp. true its not the nuts, but its not any different than having KQs and hitting the flush. how worried are you about the A high flush with that kind of hand?

i think its a profitable long term hand to incorporate it into my play. well, we'll find out anyway.

Talk about a tiny sample size.

Axs is barely profitable for me, why even bother with Kxs unless I feel like mixing it up?

Flushes suck, it's difficult to get paid off with them. What sucks even more is pairing your K time and again and folding to overt aggression or having your kicker beat at showdown.

-'rilla

true about the tiny sample size, but its just a thought. i think it also helps if you know your opponent somewhat -- for example, ill play Kx suited for a small raise against a few known opps cause theyre known to raise suited connectors in position. this way if the flush hits (like it did last night for a monster $700 pot) i have implied odds.

.02



edit: this all goes with my new thoughts on postflop play though, so honestly, feel free to ignore me. i think when youre working with deeeep stacks, postflop play is more important anyway. just a litte experimentation anyway.

[Aquinas]

Calling raises with kxs seems like asking for trouble....but whatever works.

[Rondavu]

Don't play a suited king for a raise. Flush boards dry up the pot. Concealment equals implied odds. Flushes are the hardest to conceal.

I limp these hands if I can. I like playing them a lot, but never for a raise unless I already limped and the preflop pot odds dictate a call.

[dalecooper]

Yes. I hate playing hands that have no chance except the flush. It's a nice thing to have in your hip pocket - like with suited high cards, suited connectors - so that you have more ways to win the hand. But the stuff that makes you money in no limit are hidden sets and straights. Flushes are hard to make money on unless someone else has a lower one, and they don't hit often enough to be worth pursuing. Therefore, Kx and Qx suited are pretty useless except in a very short-handed game where you might actually walk with top pair no kicker. I do play them occasionally in 6max when there are a couple empty seats, the table is passive, and I'm on the button - but that's about it.

[drmcboy]

Doyle plays Kxs, I think limping. If I've been playing a lot of hands I'll probably let it go unless there is a lot of limping in front... if I've been folding J4o for a while I'm more likely to wade in, I hate when my chips get dusty, and maybe I can use the tight image to steal the pot whatever comes. One nice thing compared with lower SCs is if you make two pair you're less likely to be counterfeited.

[storm75m]

I give Kxs the same credit I give to Axs, and play them the exact same way. (Never call raises, just limp in LP) Only once or twice in over a year of play has my king high flush run into an ace high flush. You just have to be able to lay that paired king down if you need to. But I'm starting to question playing it though, since it's only real value is for a flush and flushes are so obvious (unless you play them in a tricky way)

[JeffreyGB]

Doyle plays Kxs, I think limping.

Honestly, I wouldn't base much play on what Doyle does. Either a person is too green to make it work, or they have the experience to know how to play it without that being a factor in the reasoning. I wouldn't be surprised if Doyle's VP$IP was in the 40% or greater range.

[SmackinYaUp]

I wouldn't worry about flushes much if I were you. Like rilla said, they are pretty obvious. I also definitely don't play straights. It's so hard to get a nut straight. By the time the river card hits, your flopped nut straight has been counterfeited by a flush card, paired board, or at the least the board bringing up 4 to the straight and you split the pot with some joker. Flushes aren't so bad, but the only thing they are good for is chasing with pot odds - implied odds are just about non-existent.

[Rondavu]

I wouldn't worry about flushes much if I were you. Like rilla said, they are pretty obvious. I also definitely don't play straights. It's so hard to get a nut straight. By the time the river card hits, your flopped nut straight has been counterfeited by a flush card, paired board, or at the least the board bringing up 4 to the straight and you split the pot with some joker. Flushes aren't so bad, but the only thing they are good for is chasing with pot odds - implied odds are just about non-existent.

I took rillas advice and started playing more low connectors and one gappers for moderate raises a couple days ago. It's already started paying off. The one great side benefit is it loosens your image for when you have a premium non trap type hand as well. People see you showdown 79offsuit to beat a preflop raised AK unimproved on a rag board, and they start thinking you're retarded. Truth is they don't know you're in complete control.

I'll be playing for straights more often. Hitting a one or two gapped straight is money in the bank against high pockets.

[Element187]

I wouldn't worry about flushes much if I were you. Like rilla said, they are pretty obvious. I also definitely don't play straights. It's so hard to get a nut straight. By the time the river card hits, your flopped nut straight has been counterfeited by a flush card, paired board, or at the least the board bringing up 4 to the straight and you split the pot with some joker. Flushes aren't so bad, but the only thing they are good for is chasing with pot odds - implied odds are just about non-existent.

I took rillas advice and started playing more low connectors and one gappers for moderate raises a couple days ago. It's already started paying off. The one great side benefit is it loosens your image for when you have a premium non trap type hand as well. People see you showdown 79offsuit to beat a preflop raised AK unimproved on a rag board, and they start thinking you're retarded. Truth is they don't know you're in complete control.

I'll be playing for straights more often. Hitting a one or two gapped straight is money in the bank against high pockets.

i started play this style 3 or 4 weeks ago, its been a tremendous money maker for me.. sometimes it bites me in the ass, but not enough to stop me from playing this way.

showing down 64o to crack AA sends the table in a fury and now your Aces will get paid off when you reraise someone all-in on someone who raise 6x the BB with JJ

[biondino]

I'm sorry to boast, but the most *perfect* example of this happened to me last night. (actually not quite perfect - I called too big a pre-flop raise ($5 at $25NL) from an aggressive player, with 45s)

Flop comes up 678.

Big bet from villain, call from me. Turn is an ace. I am thanking my lucky stars (as I have him on AA at this point) and sure enough, he goes AI. River is a rag, he shows AA and I take the lot. Wonderful, perfect, textbook example. It made me very happy.

[Element187]

I'm sorry to boast, but the most *perfect* example of this happened to me last night. (actually not quite perfect - I called too big a pre-flop raise ($5 at $25NL) from an aggressive player, with 45s)

Flop comes up 678.

Big bet from villain, call from me. Turn is an ace. I am thanking my lucky stars (as I have him on AA at this point) and sure enough, he goes AI. River is a rag, he shows AA and I take the lot. Wonderful, perfect, textbook example. It made me very happy.

5$ at the 25NL table, i would fold. the raise is too large to make this positive EV in the long run.

i'd say a 2$ at the .10/.25 blinds is the max im going to try to destack a fish.

also position is very important, you want to be acting after the preflop raiser on all rounds of betting.

[Zangief]

I'm sorry to boast, but the most *perfect* example of this happened to me last night. (actually not quite perfect - I called too big a pre-flop raise ($5 at $25NL) from an aggressive player, with 45s)

Flop comes up 678.

Big bet from villain, call from me. Turn is an ace. I am thanking my lucky stars (as I have him on AA at this point) and sure enough, he goes AI. River is a rag, he shows AA and I take the lot. Wonderful, perfect, textbook example. It made me very happy.

No, no - the perfect example is calling a 4xBB raise (when 8xBB is standard) when I have a big stack against another big stack ... with 36 clubs. Flop comes 245. Now I'm just hoping for a 3 to fall, so he'll make a wheel and I can destack him. Turn, a 9. He bets, I raise, he calls. River, a 3! He bets, I raise all-in, he calls. He shows AKs, I rake $120 pot. Comment from onlooker: "36, are you kidding? Have fun losing it."

(I know some people don't like the two-gappers, but this seemed like the right price for the hand. I may have folded it for more pre-flop.)

[Element187]

I'm sorry to boast, but the most *perfect* example of this happened to me last night. (actually not quite perfect - I called too big a pre-flop raise ($5 at $25NL) from an aggressive player, with 45s)

Flop comes up 678.

Big bet from villain, call from me. Turn is an ace. I am thanking my lucky stars (as I have him on AA at this point) and sure enough, he goes AI. River is a rag, he shows AA and I take the lot. Wonderful, perfect, textbook example. It made me very happy.

No, no - the perfect example is calling a 4xBB raise (when 8xBB is standard) when I have a big stack against another big stack ... with 36 clubs. Flop comes 245. Now I'm just hoping for a 3 to fall, so he'll make a wheel and I can destack him. Turn, a 9. He bets, I raise, he calls. River, a 3! He bets, I raise all-in, he calls. He shows AKs, I rake $120 pot. Comment from onlooker: "36, are you kidding? Have fun losing it."

(I know some people don't like the two-gappers, but this seemed like the right price for the hand. I may have folded it for more pre-flop.)

8x the BB is not a bad raise to call with deep stack vs deep stack.

nothing wrong with two gappers.

i play at the 50NL tables, hardly anyone ever raises to 8x the BB .. the standard is 4x so its very easy to destack someone.


i love the comments after words tho.

[Zangief]

I'm sorry to boast, but the most *perfect* example of this happened to me last night. (actually not quite perfect - I called too big a pre-flop raise ($5 at $25NL) from an aggressive player, with 45s)

Flop comes up 678.

Big bet from villain, call from me. Turn is an ace. I am thanking my lucky stars (as I have him on AA at this point) and sure enough, he goes AI. River is a rag, he shows AA and I take the lot. Wonderful, perfect, textbook example. It made me very happy.

No, no - the perfect example is calling a 4xBB raise (when 8xBB is standard) when I have a big stack against another big stack ... with 36 clubs. Flop comes 245. Now I'm just hoping for a 3 to fall, so he'll make a wheel and I can destack him. Turn, a 9. He bets, I raise, he calls. River, a 3! He bets, I raise all-in, he calls. He shows AKs, I rake $120 pot. Comment from onlooker: "36, are you kidding? Have fun losing it."

(I know some people don't like the two-gappers, but this seemed like the right price for the hand. I may have folded it for more pre-flop.)

8x the BB is not a bad raise to call with deep stack vs deep stack.

nothing wrong with two gappers.

i play at the 50NL tables, hardly anyone ever raises to 8x the BB .. the standard is 4x so its very easy to destack someone.


i love the comments after words tho.

Yeah, I agree 8x BB with big stacks isn't bad ... I'm just not in love with 63s. I'd rather have something like 98s-65s or 97s-75s. But now I definitely see the good part about having a 6 in the connectors.

[Zangief]

BTW, bringing this back to the original topic: Does anyone with long-standing stats actually make any money with Kx suited?

[Element187]

that is a perfect setup if someone makes a wheel with AA or AK

but if someone holds AA or KK and push all in on them when you hit your small straight, you are going to be called over 90% of the time .. people get married to those hands.

[buttonAA]

I am new to this, but just today I got beat hard by a suited connector and I had AK. this was before I read this thread, I paid for this learning experience because it will never happen to me again, and I will be the one doing it for now on.

I can't wait

[AcesInTheHole]

See me myself, I agree with Rilla'... unless for some reason I feel like making things interesting, I find no reason to come in with it, most of the time it's just gonna get you in trouble

[a500lbgorilla]

I wouldn't worry about flushes much if I were you. Like rilla said, they are pretty obvious. I also definitely don't play straights. It's so hard to get a nut straight. By the time the river card hits, your flopped nut straight has been counterfeited by a flush card, paired board, or at the least the board bringing up 4 to the straight and you split the pot with some joker. Flushes aren't so bad, but the only thing they are good for is chasing with pot odds - implied odds are just about non-existent.

65s for a raise standard raise on the button. Flop gives me the straight 789 2 spades. Aggro player continuation bets, I raise, he calls. Turn is an A. 3rd spade. Aggro player pots, I push, he calls. AKo.

3 flush boards will counterfeit your hand multiways, but a lot of the time it's clear you're ahead.

-'rilla