Ride these cowboys?

[zilch]

Anyone play this hand, which was played fairly early in a tourn, any differently? Raise anywhere? Fold anywhere?

(Note that this is Pot Limit)

PokerStars Game #971512101: Tournament #3919777, Hold'em Pot Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2004/12/18 - 08:16:59 (ET) Table '3919777 3' Seat #2 is the button Seat 1: BAMACASH (1515 in chips) Seat 2: zilchy (1475 in chips) Seat 3: xtmec (1390 in chips) Seat 4: Steeler #82 (1645 in chips) Seat 5: S. F. B. (4555 in chips) Seat 6: tardust (880 in chips) Seat 7: jennicide (2140 in chips) Seat 8: spawney (860 in chips) Seat 9: devilpup (580 in chips)
xtmec: posts small blind 15
Steeler #82: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to zilchy [Kd Ks]
S. F. B.: calls 30
tardust: folds
jennicide: raises 105 to 135
spawney: folds
devilpup: folds
BAMACASH: folds
zilchy: calls 135
xtmec: folds
Steeler #82: folds
S. F. B.: folds
*** FLOP *** [6s 3d Qs]
jennicide: bets 345
zilchy: calls 345
*** TURN *** [6s 3d Qs] [2c]
jennicide: bets 1035
zilchy: calls 995 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [6s 3d Qs 2c] [As]

[LeFou]

Raise anywhere?

Everywhere. You have more or less given opp three free chances to beat you. I almost hope that Ace at the end did it, too.

Do NOT slowplay these freaking things. What gives?

Raise the flop. Big. Only a set or 2pair beats you here. Since you gave out two more cards, you got to where you're beaten by
Any ace, inc./esp. AQ which is what I put opp on at this point
the flopped flush draw
The flopped OESD, if opp is one of those LSC raisin' people
Flopped/turned sets & 2pairs

[LeFou]

Addendum: with KK, as Doyle says, you're generally going to win a small pot or lose a big one. But on further review there are some possibilities that make it not so cut and dried

-if you have a read on opp and heshe would only raise big MP with a nice pair, you still should reraise, but if a big bet still comes on that flop then opp is not worried about the Q, so you give himher credit for AA KK or QQ. i.e. 2/3 chance you're dominated and 1/3 chance to split. Let it go.
-having done what you did, the AI on the turn looks more like AQ, in which case it was a good call and you simply caught very bad on the river.

[zilch]

Thanks LeFou, of course your right. I can't believe how I played it.

At the time, pre flop, I just thought "great got them HU lets see how I can milk them". Then when the flop comes I realise that I have no idea where I stand. Do they have QQ or AA or even a smaller pair? Then I just had a head fit and could not decide what to do for best. Terrible

[a500lbgorilla]

What are you reads on jennicide? I hear she's a big player around pokerstars. I can only assume that flat calling on the flop didn't scare her, hence her turn action. The board is big on spades, so with no reads beyond the fact that she's "good" she good be mistakenly playing AQ and missread you for the draw OR she could be protecting top set.

The preflop call was fine.

Flop: You need to re-raise. By calling here, you leave none of your stack left to figure out if your hand is best and you're basically saying, "I'm going all in, but after I let jennicide see some more cards and figure if she wants to go in too"

The rest is history.

-'rilla

[zilch]

I didn't have much of a read on jennacide. They had been fairly aggressive and those 1 or 2 hands I had seen had been good cards. They did have a bit of a fan club so you could be right about them being a "name".

They actually had 7h4h so they just had a gutshot and it was a good ending for me. After that they played very very agressively got back to a reasonable stack size and then blew it on another hand like this one.

[michael1123]

You played it all right, just took the risky route instead of the straight forward route.

Chances are if you reraise big preflop, even without knowing Jennicide's hand (as he is a very good player), you're just picking up what's out there already, as its typically clear that a tight player has AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, or possibly, but least likely, AQ in this scenario. Good players don't need to have hands when they bet, but they do when they call big raises (much more than bets, too, as raising is a much larger indication of strength than betting).

Waiting until the turn to raise and hope to get them to commit more of their chips with a dominated hand is fine too, just again more risky. If they checked or bet small on the turn you should've certainly shoved in here, but they put you in so it was a pretty easy decision.

The only problem I see in your thinking is assuming for some reason that you're likely beat on the flop. This is pretty standard aggressive play so far by Jennicide. He raised preflop, so expect him to bet the flop rather hard no matter what he has. There's no reason you should be fearing or expecting a set, AA, or two pair, unless you saw a real sign of strength, such as if you raised and then they reraised. Then you should start to worry.

So yeah, if you figured you were ahead and knew it was risky but decided to take the gamble to get more chips with the slowplay, its a fine move. If you were just calling because you thought you were a lock to win the hand or if you were worried you were beat, then it would be a poorly played hand, at least in terms of your logic behind the play.

[Scotch Rock]

I don't like to slow play these anymore unless I think I really need the big win right then and there (i.e., if there's no way I'm in the money unless I double up soon). But if that's the case, the blinds are usually large enough to be worth stealing.

Yesterday I allowed myself to get sucked out on the river when my oponent held middle pair and hit trips on the river. I had bullets and tried to extract a bet and a check-raise from him. I should have bet into him since I didn't need to double up to make the final table.

[Scotch Rock]

I don't like to slow play these anymore unless I think I really need the big win right then and there (i.e., if there's no way I'm in the money unless I double up soon). But if that's the case, the blinds are usually large enough to be worth stealing.

Yesterday I allowed myself to get sucked out on the river when my oponent held middle pair and hit trips on the river. I had bullets and tried to extract a bet and a check-raise from him. I should have bet into him since I didn't need to double up to make the final table.

[jennicide]

Chances are if you reraise big preflop, even without knowing Jennicide's hand (as he is a very good player), you're just picking up what's out there already, as its typically clear that a tight player has AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, or possibly, but least likely, AQ in this scenario. Good players don't need to have hands when they bet, but they do when they call big raises (much more than bets, too, as raising is a much larger indication of strength than betting).

Thanks Michael, but pleaseeeee I'm a SHE!!!

However, in regards to this hand...I think for protection you should be a bit more aggressive here.

{This post has been removed}

[TylerK]

Rippy wants an autograph

[michael1123]

Haha, I just finally saw this. If you ever see this, sorry about the mistake, Jennicide.

A lot of guys use girl avatars (*cough* like on this site *cough*), so it gets confusing.

[zenbitz]

Yeah, I can see wanting to slow play this... but not with 2 spades on the flop. Of course, you played it perfectly against a laggy open raise wiith 74.

Hmm.... I wonder how pot limit changes this? Still, got to reraise that flop

[allLiving]

He didn't slow play it. Nice play.