Someone Please Save My Game!

[EasyT]

I cannot seem to move my chip stack in the right direction no matter what I do. I've read Super System, Ken Warren Teaches Texas Hold Em, and Vorhaus' Killer Online Poker. Super System 2 arrived in my mailbox today. I feel like I play a knowledgable game of Hold Em, but cannot seem to win. I understand good starting hands, pot odds, calculating outs, position, and some basic "moves" (like stealing). I've been playing at $10 max NL tables mostly. But I only started playing in August 2004. Perhaps I'm on the underside of the learing curve--nobody should expect to win from the first hand, right?

So there's my situation. I feel like I'm putting in the effort by reading books, joining this site, etc. And I play for several hours, several times a week. And I'm broke again. I'm getting ready to re-buy AGAIN, and am discouraged. I'm torn between thinking -
A) I'm just not cut out for this-ie have terribe intuition or have some other personal malfunction, or
B) I'm right on the cusp--there's something I'm not realizing and very soon it's gonna 'click'.

I enjoy playing. But obviously I would like to hold my own in the bankroll department. How long did you play before making forward progress? Perhaps my bankroll is just too small to survive the swings of NL$10? Do I really need to buy in for $150 to play $0.10 tables?!

All advice welcome!

[lolzzz_321]

Post some hands.

FTR will be glad to help/flail without mercy.

[aokrongly]

...

[LeFou]

There are 2 kinds of mistakes - mistakes I've made and mistakes I'm gonna make. Until you get more in the first category than you have in the 2nd category, you'll have trouble seeing what you're doing wrong

I like this bit.

EasyT: a lot of stuff comes to mind reading yr thoughts:
-Boy I've been there, and during very bad runs i'm deathly afraid i'm there again
-Limit hold 'em is a surprisingly rewarding endeavor when you've got some skills but lack ... let's call it "sophistication". No pot is big enough to get you down in the dumps for more than a few seconds. You get a Very Good feel for the value of draws. And you can quickly develop a good sense of position -- one of the chief factors that separates decent players from good (read: "profitable") ones.
-don't feel like trying limit? post as many NL hand histories as you can in here (one at a time is better). Not the ones where you got cracked/sucked out on. The ones where you can't figure out whether you played it right and just got unlucky or whether you blundered. The ones where you say to yourself "I'm pretty sure I'd play this the same way next time, but I wouldn't have any confidence 'cause I'd be remembering how this one went."

[EasyT]

Ok, here's one hand.
I have PokerStat which helps me look back at mistakes.
I think I played this hand well, but I clearly put this fella on the wrong cards. AJ or KJ I had him on KLet me know what you think.

Paradise #697,878,937 - (blinds $0.10/$0.25) No Limit Hold'em - 2005/01/20-21:35:57 (CST)
Table "Aratika" (real money) -- Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: easyflop ($19.55 in chips) (button)
Seat 2: allstar7 ($24.75 in chips) (sb)
Seat 4: Trip10z ($17.70 in chips) (bb)
Seat 5: marv41 ($24.75 in chips)
Seat 6: DaTon ($28.85 in chips)
Seat 7: Jim Morrison ($25.05 in chips)
Seat 8: justfor69fun ($29.75 in chips)
Seat 9: Blots JR ($35.40 in chips)
Seat 10: NYC-IRISH ($12.40 in chips)
allstar7 : Post Small Blind ($0.10)
Trip10z : Post Big Blind ($0.25)
Dealt to easyflop [ Kh ]
Dealt to easyflop [ Th ]
marv41 : Fold
DaTon : Raise ($0.50)
Jim Morrison : Fold
justfor69fun : Fold
Blots JR : Fold
NYC-IRISH : Fold
easyflop : Call ($0.50) (button)
allstar7 : Fold (sb)
Trip10z : Call ($0.25) (bb)
*** FLOP *** : [ Tc 5h 3s ]
Trip10z : Check (bb)
DaTon : Bet ($1.50)
easyflop : Raise ($3.00) (button)
Trip10z : Fold (bb)
DaTon : Call ($1.50)
*** TURN *** : [ Tc 5h 3s ] [ Jd ]
DaTon : Check
easyflop : Bet ($1.30) (button)
DaTon : Raise ($7.00)
easyflop : Call ($5.70) (button)
*** RIVER *** : [ Tc 5h 3s Jd ] [ Ts ]
DaTon : Bet ($9.50)
easyflop : Call All-in ($9.05) (button)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $37.80 | Rake: $1.90
Board: [ Tc 5h 3s Jd Ts ]
easyflop lost $19.55 [ Kh Th ] (three of a kind)
allstar7 lost $0.10 (folded)
Trip10z lost $0.50 (folded)
marv41 didn't bet (folded)
DaTon bet $20, collected $38.25, net +$18.25 [ Js Jh ] (full house)
Jim Morrison didn't bet (folded)
justfor69fun didn't bet (folded)
Blots JR didn't bet (folded)
NYC-IRISH didn't bet (folded)

[EasyT]

I am going to join Empire Poker in the near future. I know many sites give bonuses for referring your friends. If Empire has such a bonus, I can tell them you referred me and get you the bonus. Give me your info! Just promise not to prey on THIS newbie.

Thanks for all your help too.

[a500lbgorilla]

Fold that hand preflop(it's a ok call on the button. Just ok), or on the turn. You have second pair and call an AI?

What hands that are pushing do you beat?

-'rilla

[lolzzz_321]

I'll refer u, lets see ill be getting alotta money after this refferal



Just pm me ur info or IM me

AIM:Triptanes

[lolzzz_321]

In refrence to the hand:

Gotta be wary of those raises. Is it really worth it to pay that much for TPGK? The river helped you, but also trapped you. Lay it down and wait for a better hand.

[EasyT]

Thanks for your replies. I'm looking through my histories, and can see pretty easily where I went wrong on lots of individual hands. It's easy to do in reverse (knowing what the other guy had). Here's another one, which I just think is a bad beat. I definitely didn't have this guy on those rags. Maybe I wasn't aggressive enough. Let him draw out.

Paradise #702,971,292 - (blinds $0.05/$0.10) No Limit Hold'em - 2005/01/26-11:42:01 (CST)
Table "Dominica" (real money) -- Seat 7 is the button
Seat 1: Racman23 ($10.36 in chips)
Seat 2: easyflop ($15.75 in chips)
Seat 3: rob power ($15.97 in chips)
Seat 4: Jim2255 ($2.90 in chips)
Seat 6: Old_Shaman ($10 in chips)
Seat 7: chris delp ($21.70 in chips) (button)
Seat 8: jazzman99 ($6.20 in chips) (sb)
Seat 9: triceb ($7.55 in chips) (bb)
Seat 10: GentlemanKen ($8.77 in chips)
jazzman99 : Post Small Blind ($0.05)
triceb : Post Big Blind ($0.10)
Old_Shaman : Post ($0.10)
Dealt to easyflop [ Ah ]
Dealt to easyflop [ Ac ]
GentlemanKen : Call ($0.10)
Racman23 : Raise ($0.20)
easyflop : Raise ($0.55)
rob power : Fold
Jim2255 : Fold
Old_Shaman : Fold
chris delp : Call ($0.55) (button)
jazzman99 : Fold (sb)
triceb : Fold (bb)
GentlemanKen : Call ($0.45)
Racman23 : Call ($0.35)
*** FLOP *** : [ 2c 4s 7d ]
GentlemanKen : Check
Racman23 : Check
easyflop : Bet ($0.10)
chris delp : Call ($0.10) (button)
GentlemanKen : Call ($0.10)
Racman23 : Call ($0.10)
*** TURN *** : [ 2c 4s 7d ] [ Qd ]
GentlemanKen : Check
Racman23 : Check
easyflop : Bet ($0.50)
chris delp : Fold (button)
GentlemanKen : Call ($0.50)
Racman23 : Fold
*** RIVER *** : [ 2c 4s 7d Qd ] [ Ad ]
GentlemanKen : Check
easyflop : Bet ($4.00)
GentlemanKen : Raise All-in ($7.62)
easyflop : Call ($3.62)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $18.19 | Rake: $0.90
Board: [ 2c 4s 7d Qd Ad ]
Racman23 lost $0.65 (folded)
easyflop lost $8.77 [ Ah Ac ] (three of a kind)
rob power didn't bet (folded)
Jim2255 didn't bet (folded)
Old_Shaman lost $0.10 (folded)
chris delp lost $0.65 (folded)
jazzman99 lost $0.05 (folded)
triceb lost $0.10 (folded)
GentlemanKen bet $8.77, collected $18.19, net +$9.42 [ 5s 3h ] (straight)

[lolzzz_321]

Don't slow play, bet pot size amts. Good raise PF, Im gonna go track down that guy playin 35os for you.

[a500lbgorilla]

Bet bigger on every street. Worse hands will pay you off commonly.

-'rilla

[aleksandr]

At the limits you're playing at slowplaying is the death. People check through like a baggage claim and chase draws about half the time.

Flushes/straights are about 1/3 to beat you on a draw. Bet the pot = make money always. Slow play = make money 2/3 of the time.

Here's a short list I made when I was on a losing streak early in my learning career:

1) Bet the pot. Bad beats happen and you will always profit over losses if you be the pot.
2) Fold middle pairs
3) Stop bluffing unless you know you're profiting from it.
4) Lay off the implied odds
5) Lay off the draws
6) Fold to re-raises preflop if your hand is weak (Group 2 and above call them down, reraise/push all in with monsters like QQ, KK, AK/AKs, and of course AA)
7) The blinds are cheap. Wait for a dominating hand as opposed to just a good hand.
8) Trips get slowplayed alot. Take advantage of this on your draws.

You might also want to play in some cheap SNGs. You get to play so many more hands for your dollar, the experience is amazing, and you learn that risking your stack on coinflips and marginal pots is a losing proposition.

[ectomorph]

Poker books are great and all but you can end up with "paralyzation from analyzation". Between Doyle tellin you to move in on everything and Warren tellin you to fold and then write it down in your notebook, you'll go nuts. Just play your game and make what you think are the "right" choices.

[Excalibur]

Everytime there's a draw to straight or flush on the table - take down the odds form your opponant! Then if you loose against the "I play anything"-guys atleast you know that you will win long-run.

Never slowplay high cards or high pairs at these stakes, only your draws!

At these stakes:
* Play a relativly tight game (See about 20-25% of the flops)
* When you get a good hand - raise
* Always play by the odds & outs!
* Never slowplay your high cards only your draws!
* A higher bet from your opponant often means a GOOD hand!
* If you notice that your opponants starts to fold everytime you choose to play. Just change table... Don't change your tight style!
* Keep you play to 30-40 mins per session (Take an hour break cleare you head, then start again if you want to. Concentration is important)

Wait for the right cards and then play aggressive! Raise or fold...
You get a lot of information by raising!

Flopturnriver is better than any books out there... In here you'll always find 10 different views on the same question! This is a GREAT site for learning!

MvH Excalibur

[Admerylous]

EasyT, a lot of that hand (such as despite raising 5xBB preflop having 2/5o call) is just the nature of micro-limit poker.

There has been an abundance of solid information for beginners on this thread.

[JeffreyGB]

First hand (KT): As 'rilla said, this is an iffy call preflop. Sure it's only a min-raise, and if you'd already paid the .25 then paying .25 more isn't bad. Cold-calling any raised pot with KT usually is a bad idea though. Take note that this guy doesn't raise much preflop with a fairly good hand - most people here will tell you that JJ is a limp or raise big situation (I'm a fan of the latter).

Your play on the flop was fine. Calling his all-in when that J hit on the turn was absurd. You have at best 5 outs if he has just one J. Since he had two, you were drawing dead. But even assuming he had one, calling here is a bad idea. He stayed in for some reason after your flop raise. It's quite possible that he'd have played like this having TP-ok-K or a middle pair. When the J led him to raise I'd be confident he has your tens beat, quite probably with two pair or better.

Second hand (AA): Preflop play = good. 5xBB is a good raise. His call here was obviously a huge mistake on his part, and I'd be noting it so that if I saw him again I'd be ready to take advantage. When the flop came, your raise was very weak. Sure you don't put him on low crap. Still, there's a str draw on the table, and since an Ace could be involved it in, it's more dangerous than mid-range str draws (as many people at this level will call a preflop raise holding Ax). Bet half the pot or more and make the chumps with A3/A5 or the idiots with 35 fold. Bet stronger on the turn here too, since it didn't impact the str draw. Remember, even if AA is the best starting hand, if you don't hit, it's only top pair. You gotta make people pay if they want to try to draw out.

[duece duece OE]

stop posting here, go to www.twoplustwo.com, best advice I can give you for improving your play.

[a500lbgorilla]

Assuming you want to be bombarded with assholes who think they're god's gift to the game.

At 2+2 everyone is the best and out to prove it.
At FTR everyone wants to improve and is out to do it.

-'rilla

Another 2+2 spammer.

/me plays A-Team song and chases him off our boards!

[duece duece OE]

Assuming you want to be bombarded with assholes who think they're god's gift to the game.

At 2+2 everyone is the best and out to prove it.
At FTR everyone wants to improve and is out to do it.

-'rilla

I realize you guys hate that place, but your assesment of it is totally wrong.

[a500lbgorilla]

We (I) don't hate it. It's a great place for information.

I just don't like the people that much.

-'rilla

[duece duece OE]

there are definitely some ass holes over there, but oh well, most people ignore them. Personally, I think their forum is a done in a better format as well. I have read through some of the threads here and I am surprised by what I am reading. There seems to me to be a lot of weak-tight advice, which is not good IMO.

[FishMagician]

You're really proving that the people from 2+2 are stand-up guys by coming here and trashing this site. Seriously, just leave.

-Fishmagician

[duece duece OE]

You're really proving that the people from 2+2 are stand-up guys by coming here and trashing this site. Seriously, just leave.

-Fishmagician

cool, I like good advice, so I am leaving. Enjoy getting steam rolled at the tables.

[EasyT]

I want to thank everyone for the advice. I've been studying my hand histories with PokerStat and thinking about my game pretty much all day. Here's what I've decided.

1) I was actually AFRIAD to be a tight player. I see too many people winning giant pots with mediocre cards and maybe a had a little too much of the old 'any hand can win' running around my brain. Did you see my post of a few days ago 'making a first impression'. That idea was nuts! Somewhere I got the impression that if you only ever play Group 1-2 hands, nobody will call you when you do. This is clearly incorrect. It may not be the most profitable way to play all the time, but it's more likely to move my bankroll in the right direction at least.

2) I was also AFRIAD to show any weakness. Sometimes I was betting my draws (4fl, etc) to try to keep an upper hand on the table. Then when I get raised, I'm really losing whether I call or fold. Pretty much the same thing when I get KQs and the flop is J72 rainbow. I don't want to look like I missed and end up firing money into pots I end up losing.

3) I was pretty much playing group 2-5 hands the same way: raise in LP, call in E-MP. I'll have to be more observant of the different VALUE these hands hold.

4) I suspect everyone of bluffing all the time. I know you have to look people up more often online than at a home game, but I was looking up a ton of winning hands. The first example I posted is just that, I think. I've got to respect re-raises and just fold unless I have a very good hand. Wait for another hand.

Ok. Thank you all again. I have a ton of other Qs, which I'll start new posts on from time to time. You folks have been great. I really appreciate how much time you took to write and how you all were supportive rather than just ragging me down.


PS do any of you hit that 2x2 site that guy mentioned?

[duece duece OE]

yes they do, some of they like it, some hate it, some are apathetic, go check it out and make up your mind on your own. People are blunt though on 2+2.

[|~|ypermegachi]

yes they do, some of they like it, some hate it, some are apathetic, go check it out and make up your mind on your own. People are blunt though on 2+2.

2+2 tends to have more arrogant pricks. most of them know what they're doing though.

[JeffreyGB]

4) I suspect everyone of bluffing all the time.

I've had this problem too. It's actually been the biggest leak in my game. I'm instituting a rule that I won't call any huge bets without the nuts during the first 20 mins of a session (after that I've gotten in my grove enough to have a read on my table).

- Jeffrey

[Eric]

I've read Super System, Ken Warren Teaches Texas Hold Em, and Vorhaus' Killer Online Poker.

I know Sklansky has a section in Super System but I would read a full Sklansky book if I was in your shoes.

[EasyT]

Any recommendations, Eric?

Slansky:
Theory of Poker.
Small Stakes Hold Em.
Tournament Poker for Adv. Players.
Hold Em for Adv. Players.

I presume from your recommendation that Slansky must have a different perspective on Hold Em from the other author's I've read (and that he conveys himself well). I'm always ready for a good book.

[JeffreyGB]

Slansky:
Theory of Poker.
Small Stakes Hold Em.
Tournament Poker for Adv. Players.
Hold Em for Adv. Players.

Start with one of the first two. Both will remain on my 'all should read list'. SSH is also on my 'to read again' list, after I work my way through a few others. The Adv books will do you more good after you've read one or both of the first two.

- Jeffrey