Repping

[dalecooper]

***** Hand History for Game 2008165570 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Friday, May 06, 14:42:03 EDT 2005
Table Table 37607 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: ImaLouzer ( $68.4 )
Seat 3: BlueSWE ( $59.4 )
Seat 4: jrbgrim ( $28.05 )
Seat 5: ig0tnothin ( $24.71 )
Seat 6: Jouhka ( $36.96 )
Seat 7: words91 ( $61.03 )
Seat 9: Stosh1 ( $80.7 )
Seat 10: juicyjc ( $75.8 )
Seat 8: stressball10 ( $23.05 )
Seat 2: KoyBass ( $24.5 )
Jouhka posts small blind [$0.1].
words91 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ 6c 5c ]
stressball10 calls [$0.25].
Stosh1 folds.
juicyjc folds.
ImaLouzer calls [$0.25].
BlueSWE folds.
jrbgrim calls [$0.25].
ig0tnothin folds.
Jouhka calls [$0.15].
words91 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qc, Kc, 3d ]
Jouhka checks.
words91 bets [$2].
stressball10 raises [$4].
ImaLouzer folds.
jrbgrim folds.
Jouhka folds.
words91 calls [$2].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qd ]
words91 checks.
stressball10 bets [$5].
words91 folds.
stressball10 does not show cards.
stressball10 wins $13.8

[dsaxton]

What were you representing?

I'd raise more than the minimum on the flop if you're trying to get him to fold.

[dalecooper]

What were you representing?

Two pair on the flop, boat on the turn - it's the most plausible hand for me to raise him with on the flop since he led out with a strong bet in early position.

I'd raise more than the minimum on the flop if you're trying to get him to fold.

I like this line actually. A decent player (and I had this guy pegged as decent) will be cautious at any raise unless his hand is really strong. To me it looks like he's overbetting top pair decent kicker because he fears the flush draw or straight draw. My min-raise says I'm stronger than him, back off. He calls (as most people do with min-raises), but the second queen on the river is the death card as long as he doesn't have a queen. He'll gladly fold there. If the board doesn't evolve in a way that scares him off, I can check behind on the turn and instead of repping a made hand, I just bought a free card for my flush draw.

[dsaxton]

You didn't raise preflop so he isn't going to put you on K-Q. K-J is the likeliest hand for you to have.

How is the second queen a death card?

[dalecooper]

You didn't raise preflop so he isn't going to put you on K-Q. K-J is the likeliest hand for you to have.

I don't know about that - he was pretty obvious about having the king and he obviously thought i had him beat. Either I had a set of threes or two pair, which is more than likely going to be with KQ unless I'm really loose. Plenty of players don't raise KQ, especially from early position; for that matter plenty of pros will limp KQ from early position and see how the pot develops. Personally I think *he* had KJ or KT, and was more than willing to believe that I had KQ.

How is the second queen a death card?

Because he hasn't got one, and if I had two pair with a queen or a low set, I just filled up.

[dsaxton]

Because he hasn't got one, and if I had two pair with a queen or a low set, I just filled up.

If you had a set, top two pair or bottom two pair, the queen doesn't change anything. If anything, the queen is a good card, because it means he's no longer losing to K-3.

[dalecooper]

You're over-thinking it though. The typical mediocre player isn't looking at it in terms of "he was ahead by x percent and now he's ahead by y percent"; he's instead thinking "oh shit, I don't have a queen... the other guy was being aggressive so I guess he does." Fold. It's not always important to analyze the hand CORRECTLY, but to analyze it the way your likely opponent would.

One of my good friends is a very solid poker player but what will often happen with him is that he bets out on a flop, I raise him, and he calls (with his top pair or middle pair, whatever it is). Then on the turn I bet bigger and he folds - and if the turn is a scare card of any sort (three-flush, board pairing, whatever) he's about 90% likely to fold. Usually he'll mutter "I shouldn't have called that flop bet." And he's right. This is how a lot of players think, even though they shouldn't. If that queen helps me on the turn, I was already enough ahead of him on the flop that he should have folded. But most players find it hard to be disciplined and fold to the first raise, while gladly folding on the turn if the board starts looking like they can't possibly win against my range of potential hands.

It's also important here to suss out exactly how decent (or not) that the other player is before betting the turn. By underbetting (only about 1/2 the pot) I seem to be making a pretty callable bet, but if he thinks the queen helped me, he'll read it as a lure and fold anyway. It takes the right kind of tight, middling-to-solid player to read it correctly; a true fish would just think "$5 isn't that much since the pot is so big" and call me.

[ender555]

If I were the other guy, theres no fucking way you had KQ. I don't know anyone who push's a house like that. Basically it looks like he had nothing and was trying to buy, and then called the min-raise out of habit or to save his table image.

Not a terrible play by you, but try that on someone who has AK or KJ and you're gonna get a fight. There's very very few people who don't raise preflop with KQ.

[ender555]

You're over-thinking it though. The typical mediocre player isn't looking at it in terms of "he was ahead by x percent and now he's ahead by y percent"; he's instead thinking "oh shit, I don't have a queen... the other guy was being aggressive so I guess he does." Fold. It's not always important to analyze the hand CORRECTLY, but to analyze it the way your likely opponent would.

One of my good friends is a very solid poker player but what will often happen with him is that he bets out on a flop, I raise him, and he calls (with his top pair or middle pair, whatever it is). Then on the turn I bet bigger and he folds - and if the turn is a scare card of any sort (three-flush, board pairing, whatever) he's about 90% likely to fold. Usually he'll mutter "I shouldn't have called that flop bet." And he's right. This is how a lot of players think, even though they shouldn't. If that queen helps me on the turn, I was already enough ahead of him on the flop that he should have folded. But most players find it hard to be disciplined and fold to the first raise, while gladly folding on the turn if the board starts looking like they can't possibly win against my range of potential hands.

I dont see what's wrong with folding to aggression if you don't have a strong hand. Just know that you're a marked man after this point and if you continue to show this sort of strength a lot you're going to get trapped/check-raise'd all over the place.

Especially because the only hand you could claim on that flop is 333 / k9 -k10. which a lot of players would just cold call with on the flop. so maybe its not the best play, but it's definitely the play that the majority of fish make.

The second paragraph you have kind of a point. lots of people call min-raises on the flop and fold on the turn (reguardless if your'e bluffing). however many many people semi-bluff online and you're giving them incredibly good odds to call your min-raise. If you were trying to represent a strong hand and not just taking advantage of a passive player trying to take a pot down with nothing you should've re-raised the pot.

I disagree about the limpers of KQ. You can't talk a bout pro's limping kq. thats tournament this is ring. completely different. limping kq in ring is not beneficial

[ekillian]

There's very very few people who don't raise preflop with KQ.

There are more than you think.

[dalecooper]

I dont see what's wrong with folding to aggression if you don't have a strong hand. Just know that you're a marked man after this point and if you continue to show this sort of strength a lot you're going to get trapped/check-raise'd all over the place.

There's nothing wrong with folding to aggression if you have a weak hand. It's a good poker play. That I took advantage of. I'm not condemning his play here, just pointing out a way you can make money off of people who are making basically correct decisions based on the limited information they have.

I don't think one hand where I raise the flop and bet the turn makes me a "marked man." Is this really abnormal aggression? Maybe this one guy has it out for me, but I doubt it. I've gotten away with far heavier aggression than this without getting "marked."

I disagree about the limpers of KQ. You can't talk a bout pro's limping kq. thats tournament this is ring. completely different. limping kq in ring is not beneficial

It's usually not, but people do it. Believe me on this one. People limp stronger hands than KQ in fact; I've had some very unusual beats from limped AA, KK, QQ, AK, and AQ. You'd think people would never limp those hands from any position, but they do. I consider people who limp those hands routinely pretty bad players. People who limp KQ aren't even playing that unusually. Limping KQ or just min-raising it before the flop is actually pretty common. Don't make the mistake of thinking "I'd never play it that way"; just realize that lots of people do, and you can exploit that (either by reading your opponent's hand correctly based on how they bet, or by repping a hand as if you were a different, more passive player).

If I were the other guy, theres no fucking way you had KQ. I don't know anyone who push's a house like that. Basically it looks like he had nothing and was trying to buy, and then called the min-raise out of habit or to save his table image.

Hmmm. "Pushing a house" - I min-raised on the flop and bet 1/2 the pot on the turn; is that pushing? I don't know what kind of games you're usually involved in, but I think this is a very common play with this hand. A check on the turn is also typical for a lot of players (not all, by any means), but for the purposes of this hand I'm not going to get that involved with my bluff. As I said before, I put out what I considered a weak bet (half the pot) which I think sends off exactly the right signals.

I disagree with your analysis of his holdings completely. He doesn't raise pre-flop so he's not the aggressor, then he tries to buy - from second position, in a 5 way pot, with "nothing"? That's got to be the weirdest, dumbest attempt to buy I've ever seen. Even in a tournament that wouldn't make sense. I'm pretty sure he had a king with a marginal kicker and figured me for a better king, or two pair. If he did have nothing, he's on my buddy list.

[Staple Gun]

I think after him making a small bet at the pot then calling your reraise, he could be holding a queen which he would probably check there. Bluffing at that is a dangerous move.

But it appears he had a flush draw or was possibly open ended with 10-J. I think you simply bet at him when he didnt hit his draw. I wouldnt have made this move though because its way to possible that he had a Q and he'll probably be calling with KJ. He also might have had a mid pocket pair, a lot of people like to raise these for some reason on flops like that.

[dalecooper]

I think after him making a small bet at the pot then calling your reraise, he could be holding a queen which he would probably check there. Bluffing at that is a dangerous move.

I don't agree - I would put him on a king or a draw, but almost certainly not a queen. Again, he led out with a larger-than-pot-sized bet from early position; who does that with second pair? It wasn't a weak bet; if anything, at these stakes and considering the pot size ($1) it was an overbet. He's protecting something and it's not a queen. Unless he flopped a lucky two pair with Q3 (which could be - he is on the big blind here). I'd take my medicine and fold to a raise on the turn if that was the case. But I'm comfortable with my read here. 3 times out of 4, that guy has a king with a bad kicker. The rest of the time he has a goofy two pair and is the type to overbet that kind of hand, or he has a draw and likes to semi-bluff. But if he were that type of player, I think he'd call me on the turn. I still say he had a king with some worthless second card. And I take back my earlier claim that he had KJ or KT - I forgot he was on the blind. He had Kx, where x is any card that isn't a 3.

I'm not saying it's 100% that he had Kx, but that's how I would read this hand usually, and I'm right often enough that this play is profitable for me. I wouldn't make it without the luxury of a flush draw in my back pocket, but I was perfectly comfortable doing it here.