The Check Raise

[EasyT]

I was looking at my statistics recently on PT, and see something missing from my game: The Check-Raise.

I had done this a total of 5 times in 5k hands, and only won 1 of those 5 hands. Four out of 5 times, I was checking out of weakness on a missed flop, then raising into a weak-ass minimum bet. This play is clearly a poor one, and I have stopped doing it. (He's betting weak with a low pair, but it beats my A-high! Hey, I'm learning. It's better to just call and then come out swinging on the turn if I'm trying to steal it, right?)

I have been betting out my good-great hands, but never check-raising them. If my hand was good enough to check and risk giving a free card(Flopped a high boat or quads), I was only calling someone else's bet so as not to scare them away from betting into me.

Here's what I THINK I know about the C-R. It's a good device for getting a little more money in a pot that you really want to take down right here, right now. Like if you flop TPTK or Two-Pair from early position and are pretty certain someone else will bet, you can check-raise it. You risk it checking around and giving someone a free card that now has you beat.

The question(s):
What circumstances do you think are good to check-raise from?
> Only in Early Position, I assume?
> Only if there was a pre-flop raiser?
> Only if you can beat TPGK? Only if you can beat two pair?
> How much is the raise? Do you come way over the top (3x the bet? 3x the pot?), or do you just make a 'reasonable' raise?

Thanks!
EasyT

[dalecooper]

Check-raising is best in early position, either in a large field (where someone is sure to bet) or with one or more known aggressors in late position who can't stand to see a pot checked around even once. If someone else pre-flop raised and you act before them, you're golden; most people will cough up a bet on the flop if they raised before the flop, whether they hit or not.

I usually don't bother check-raising TPTK unless I'm specifically trying to trap someone who is very aggressive and I think buys a lot of pots with marginal hands. I check-raise two pair or trips all the time, and sometimes straights and flushes. It's a good idea to make the raise bigger if the hand is more vulnerable, and if the field is larger. In a pot with four other people and having two pair, I'd check-raise a pretty large amount to discourage callers. If I flopped the nut flush I might just check-raise the min to encourage more action (which you won't get from a good player, but might get from others).

It can be a good move but don't over-rely on it. There's an epidemic of check-raising in a lot of online games already, so often you can get as much or more money in the pot by just betting out your good hands and hoping the bad players call. I try to mix it up between check-raising and betting out with a variety of hands. Frequently it depends on who else is in the hand.

[evman150]

Check raise can be a strong play, but it can also be a weak play.

If it is checked to me in late position on the flop and there's not much in the pot I'll take a shot at it with a 3 or 4xBB bet. Then you get some smart guy who just flopped a set check raise about 40xBB into a 10xBB pot. This is a weak play. Why not wait for me to take another shot on 4th street? Instead the guy wins a shitty little pot with an awesome hand and I've lost the minimum with trash. Bad play.

Where is a check raise good? Example:

You have JJ and raise in middle position. You get two callers, both behind you. The flop comes AJ2 rainbow. One of the two probably has an ace. But don't check raise the flop. Bet the flop. Then when one or both of the players call, check on 4th. This is a very "weak" play. Unsophisticated players will read this as very weak and will usually bet hard at the pot, especially if they have an ace. Now you can check raise here and maximize your winnings. If you're feeling particularily frisky you can even hold off the check raise until the river, but the other guy(s) might start getting suspicious of your smooth call on the turn and check it down.

[journey075]

the thing about check raising is it shows extreme strength. you cautiously check then fire down a raise...only a monster can make that play right? truth is, because of the amount of respect CR's get, i find it to be one of the best ways to bluff at my current stakes (100NL/OmahaPL).

the times when you do have a great hand (77 on an A72 rainbow flop) are the times you CR in EP. however, i think the value of actually having a hand and CRing isnt that great. id much rather check-call to indicate weakness and a 'im chasing crap' mentality. that will force a larger bet by your opponent on the turn and THAT is when you check-raise the hell out of him. it then looks like a transparent bluff and you can take his stack.

basically, CRing is for when you dont have position and want your opponent to get tied into a hand that hes killed in. if he calls your raise, all his chips = yours.

in very basic terms, a CR is right in between hands that need to be bet out (TPTK, overpair etc) and hands that can be slowplayed (flopped nuts). your hand is somewhat vulnerable but you dont want to take the preflop pot. you want to milk it as much as safely possible.

my .02 anyway...

[drmcboy]

I like to check raise with big draw hands - gives you a chance to win the pot right there, disguises your hand a little if you hit after being called, gives you a better chance pick up the pot on the turn if you miss.

Also it's a good change gear tool - if you've repped a lot of flops but not shown down lately, people may be unimpressed by yet another continuation bet, but very scared of the CR because they haven't seen it.

[dsaxton]

Sometimes when I bet two pair (usually top two) or a set on the flop and get raised, I like to just call and then check-raise on the turn, but I use this tactic sparingly.

Usually, if I have a hand strong enough to check-raise, I lead out to disguise my hand and lend credibility to my bets if the hand is shown down. If you usually don't bet with a hand worthy of check-raising, then you're placing an exploitable pattern in your play.

[ChezJ]

the check raise is extremely useful in limit hold em to juice the pot when you catch a monster hand. or to protect your hand against limpers. however in NL if you want to get more money in the pot, all you have to do is bet more, and at a loose table, you'll get called. same deal with protecting your hand, if you bet enough, the limpers will go away. so i tend not to checkraise in NL unless an obvious trapping situation presents itself. e.g., i bet my draw, guy raises with TP, i call, hit my draw, check to the raiser, then check-raise his ass with the nuts.

ChezJ

[ChezJ]

p.s. something i learned yesterday. against a SMART tight player who bets the flop with obvious TP, if you check raise him on a scary turn (e.g. third diamond) he will often give you credit and fold. again, it has to be a SMART player. but it works a LOT.

[metaxy6]

A nice analysis of check rasing vs. betting out EV in a short-handed game:

http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/p...son-pohl13.htm

I love the check raise against aggressive opponents. Usually, I'll wait for the turn to get the big bet. I will check raise the flop with bottom set or a baby flush to protect it (the aggressive pre-flop raiser will usually bet out even if there are 3 of a suit on board).

I'll also check raise for information on the flop. Say I'm in the blind with AJo. If I'm playing against a tight player who's raised from EP, I'll sometimes check and raise when an A hits and I have no reasonable draw. If he raises me back to tell me I'm beat, I don't mind chucking it.

[metaxy6]

I like to check raise with big draw hands - gives you a chance to win the pot right there, disguises your hand a little if you hit after being called, gives you a better chance pick up the pot on the turn if you miss.

Also it's a good change gear tool - if you've repped a lot of flops but not shown down lately, people may be unimpressed by yet another continuation bet, but very scared of the CR because they haven't seen it.

Interesting. I like it as a gear changer, but it could be expensive.
I generally only like to raise a big draw with position, with the aim of getting a free card. Out of position, if the turn card comes blank, what do you do? Bet out? Check? But with position, you have a chance to either take down the pot when he checks, or check along and get your card for free (even if it does telegraph your hand, assuring that you won't get paid by the dumbest of players when you do hit - but there are usually enough dumb players that will pay to see anyways).

[moiraine57]

For what my $.02 is worth, the pseudo-check raise always works for me in the low limits I play at--make the minimum bet possible at a flop that really hit you, and sometimes players can't help going over the top with crap.

A hand I just played, I checked the flop and turn (in first position, looking for a check raise). The river, I knew I had to do something, so I made the minimum bet to make it look like a laughable steal attempt. The guy responded by making a bet 20xBB. I of course went over the top and he folded like his cards were on fire..

Sometimes they will check behind you for the free showdown. But something about the minimum...oftentimes they can't resist.

Of course this would hardly ever work with good players...but if you play low limits against silly people, it is sometimes more than they can resist.

Just my .02...another trick to add to the bag of tricks.

[Bmxicle]

Check raising allows you to get a little more info (although not alot) about your opponents hand. I'll often Check raise when i call a raise with something like 77 and the board comes something like 1092 rainbow. I've missed my set, but most of the time the guy will be on overcards, so i likely have the best hand. So i check raise, and they usually fold. You get called or re-raised and you are almost always beat. But because Check Raising suggests that your hand is very strong, you will always know where you are at with your hand.

[ChezJ]

that article at pokerpages is about limit poker not NL. see my original reply above.

[sejje]

The only time I usually check-raise in NL is when

A) I check to the preflop raiser and he puts in a weak-ass bet. I raise to the size of the pot at least, and see if he just missed AK.

B) When I'm very sure someone has an overpair and I have a set, sometimes I'll do this. But usually I'll just bet out and get raised. I like that line better.

Regardless, I read once to get the money in now, not later, in games like I play in vs poor players.

Then again, I'm one of the poor players anymore...