Play Money or Real Money?

[Quocy04]

I was wondering how different is Play Money and Real Money? Are the skills different or do they use the same skills? I been trying to improve my poker skill on Play Money then move to Real Money because I don’t want to lose a lot of money. Is this a good idea or a bad idea?

[EricE]

Skills such as reading the board and comparing it to your hand remain the same. All else is different. You can learn some things from play money but if you are serious about money poker then you really just have to put some money down and play min stakes. You cannot learn to play money poker with play money. It is completely different. No risk, no poker.

Start with stakes of $2 buy ins and play it till you are comfortable to move up.

[IOS]

IMO, min stakes might as well be play money. I swear the people still play the same as play money. If you are serious about real money I suggest depositing $100 on a site with a bonus, and playing 10NL. But then again, what do I know?

[donnybaker]

Play money is just to learn how the game works. Even play at the lowest real money levels is more realistic, you just have to realize that you have to adjust. No one's going to respect your 5x preflop raise if it's just $0.10. Once you understand the game you want to play pick stakes that are easily in your bankroll and move up from there.

Edit: oh yeah, and TRACK YOUR PLAY. Check out the Poker Tracker and Poker Office topics.

[salt3d]

I have yet to see a real money limit table that has ten players capping every street. I have yet to see a real money NL table that requires you to push your max buyin PF and quintuple up before you can consider post flop poker. I have yet to see a real money SnG that has more than three players all in PF on the first hand.

The probability of these things happening at real money tables is about equivalent to the probability of them not happening at play money tables.

[xBULLETTSx]

I played play money on stars for quite some time. (12 months at least) and it tought me the fundamentals. I really wanted to start playing real money and was considering a deposit. I did some research and was able to find a legimite web site that buys play money for real cash. They will transfer it directly into your poker stars account. (im not sure of other poker rooms). I managed to stack s few million in plsy money snd started my bankroll off with a mere $39.00. I and mow sitting prety with over 25x that. I was able to learn so much from play money probably because thats all I played at first. I had no intention of depositing at first, so winning play chips was my main goal. I guess its what you can take from it, and how you can use it when you start to play real money.

[RotterSod]

I was wondering how different is Play Money and Real Money? Are the skills different or do they use the same skills? I been trying to improve my poker skill on Play Money then move to Real Money because I don’t want to lose a lot of money. Is this a good idea or a bad idea?

A while back I took a look at some of the play money games on Pokerstars just to see what they were about and I couldn't believe the kind of poker they played. Multiple AI on every hand. Massive raises with nothing. I'd avoid them like the plague as I don't believe that you will learn anything from them.

Start off at the micro limits. You'll be playing against people with the same skills and the fact that it is for real - even if it is just pennies a hand - means that there is some incentive to play straight.

[ProZachNation]

www.instantbankroll.com

They will give you $75 at party poker and $25 more after 500 raked hands, after those 500raked hands you can withdraw the money and it is yours(min withdraw is $50 tho)

Thats how I started out.

ps. if you are under 21, you will have to lie when you make your PSO account and PP account.

[Jiggus]

IMO, min stakes might as well be play money. I swear the people still play the same as play money. If you are serious about real money I suggest depositing $100 on a site with a bonus, and playing 10NL. But then again, what do I know?

Not quite. I only played play money for about 20 hands, I think. It's compeltely unreal. I''ve played $2NL, $10NL, $.05/.10, $.25/.50, %.50/$1 limit and $.50/$1 Omaha Hi-lo BEFORE I decided to concentrate on building a bankroll and improving my game. I used to play three different types of games at once, I was so stupid. That was about 4 months ago.

I've now got 16,000 $2NL hands in and I am doing well. It is not the same as the higher limits, but it's not that much different. Yes, there will be the guys like I saw two nights ago pushing all in with 52 off against 93 off, and maybe they're the type who follow Rippytide's strategy .

Anyhow, it's a great and safe way to learn, you'll make money and you'll be able to move up one of these days. I haven't yet due to a very conservative streak after my last failed attempt where I lost 40 bucks in two days. Now I'm waiting until I get to around 250 or 300 bucks before going to the ten buck tables. But that's me.

Lastly, for the micro-limits, USE AOK'S COUNTERPLAY STRATEGY. It's the only thing that'll work consistently against morons, and it'll save you a lot of grief.

Jigs

P.S. Don't follow the advice of going into 10 buck NL with only 100 bucks. That's crazy. See "Bankroll Management".

[aokrongly]

Play money poker is to real money poker
AS
Monoply is to real estate investing.

[TLR]

The only play money I played that somehow resemble real money is the 25k+ Sng at pokerstars, if you do well in them you will do well in low buy in Sng as well

[midas06]

Except you can't chop play money sngs.

[biondino]

"I used to play three different types of games at once, I was so stupid."

Um, I still do this I just like variety, I guess!

(and since I discovered Omaha hi/lo I might up it to 4 different games )

[Jiggus]

Ah Biondino, I should have prefaced that comment with words to the effect of "I thought I knew a lot about poker, when I actually knew squat, and was moronically playing three different games at a time,..."

You can learn a lot more about the game by specialising and then slowly branching out. I have learned a lot more by playing super conservatively at a single game type than by shooting and running at various games. It's probably the best way to start for novices.

Yeah, Omaha hi/lo is pretty cool, in'it?

[Miffed22001]

wtf
poker stars exchanges play money for real money?

[outphase]

wtf
poker stars exchanges play money for real money?

no, but there is a site that will buy your stars play money

[salsa4ever]

what's the point of that? what can they gain?

[biondino]

There is presumably a play money high stakes hierarchy - like, say, videogamers who don't profit from their hobby but are fiercely competitive about being the best?

[weeian]

The micro limits are pathetic. You may as well stick to the play money as play micro poker, limit or NL, no one takes it seriously enough. It is good, as has been said, for learning the basics of the game, but after that its a bit of a joke really, I don't know how anyone in their right mind could sit for hours on end trying to win consistently at micro limit poker.

I liked the idea someone posted earlier, deposit $100 or so in a decent site that will offer you a bonus and take it from there, staying away from the micro limit stuff, I honestly think that prolonged play at micro limit poker does more harm than good.

So theres my 2 bobs worth on the issue!

[SnoT_III]

shouldn't it be a lot easier to win when people are playing garbage? stay super tight at the micro limits and don't play deceptive, just raise when you have the best hand. people will call.

[Jimmy Mac]

shouldn't it be a lot easier to win when people are playing garbage? stay super tight at the micro limits and don't play deceptive, just raise when you have the best hand. people will call.

Quoted for truth. I can't stand it when ppl say "I can't beat micro limits, these guys call with anything and blah blah blah"

If you can't beat a bunch of monkeys, how are you going to beat players that have a clue?

[weeian]

"Easier to win when ppl are playing garbage" In a word No! How do you expect your big pocket cards to hold up against 4/5/6/7 callers all of whom have called 3 bets to get to the flop? J44 flops and you can bet your heap someone has the 4 and maybe even the J4, possibly even 44 to 3 pre flop bets and 7 handed! These IMO are the realities of micro limit poker.

Maybe i didn't make my point very well. Refer to the 'if you can help it' part of the post.

It is not imposible to beat the micro limits, but it is very frustrating, and it is a lotta lotta work, time and effort for peanuts in all honesty. So what i'm saying is that 'if you can help it' that is, if you can muster any sort of starting bankroll at all, then don't play micro limits. If you have a shufty at Aok's 19 starting hands strategy for example, how often are those 19 starting hands gonna hold up at 5/10c limit poker?

I stand by what I said about playin micro limits for too long doing more harm than good, its a shoot out almost every hand, and contrary to what you say, I wish ppl would stop acting like its 'real' poker, its not even close IMO.

And the answer to your question seems prety obvious really, players who actually have a clue wont be playing any 2 cards that are set in front of them, monkeys will, and they'll keep on callin bet after bet till it's capped, and they'll crack the 2 cards that you've waited 12 hands on almost every time my friend! And you's bolier will well and truly bust quick smart!

[Buzz]

I think it depends on the table at micro. I'm playing 2nl at Stars and UB while I elarn and build bankroll. I have seen tables like the secnario Weeian describes ...but I've also played on 2nl tables that folded completely to my 5xBB raise UTG with AA.

I also played a $1+.10 SnG on UB that was ridiculously tight, we still had all ten players over 1000 chips at the 25/50 blind level.

I think the key at micro (like other games I assume) is choose your table in ring games. You can find decent tables to learn on in my (limited) experience.

[chardrian]

"Easier to win when ppl are playing garbage" In a word No! How do you expect your big pocket cards to hold up against 4/5/6/7 callers all of whom have called 3 bets to get to the flop? J44 flops and you can bet your heap someone has the 4 and maybe even the J4, possibly even 44 to 3 pre flop bets and 7 handed! These IMO are the realities of micro limit poker.

Maybe i didn't make my point very well. Refer to the 'if you can help it' part of the post.

It is not imposible to beat the micro limits, but it is very frustrating, and it is a lotta lotta work, time and effort for peanuts in all honesty. So what i'm saying is that 'if you can help it' that is, if you can muster any sort of starting bankroll at all, then don't play micro limits. If you have a shufty at Aok's 19 starting hands strategy for example, how often are those 19 starting hands gonna hold up at 5/10c limit poker?

I stand by what I said about playin micro limits for too long doing more harm than good, its a shoot out almost every hand, and contrary to what you say, I wish ppl would stop acting like its 'real' poker, its not even close IMO.

And the answer to your question seems prety obvious really, players who actually have a clue wont be playing any 2 cards that are set in front of them, monkeys will, and they'll keep on callin bet after bet till it's capped, and they'll crack the 2 cards that you've waited 12 hands on almost every time my friend! And you's bolier will well and truly bust quick smart!

Poker, at any level, is frustrating. One good part about the micro levels is that it teaches you how to deal with this frustration in a much less costly manner. Cards get cracked from micro limit all the way up to the highest limits possible - that's poker. Learning not to let bad beats affect you and your future play is one of the first steps in becoming a long-term winner.

You focus much too much on getting your good hands beat. Partly I am guessing that is because you have a hard time laying down AA when a flop of 44J comes and your bets are then raised. But what you also fail to mention is that these "stupid monkeys" also pay you off with your AA when the flop comes A6J rainbow.

[weeian]

Cards get cracked from micro limit all the way up to the highest limits possible - that's poker.

True, but cards get cracked far more often at micro tables than at higher limits, this is the point im trying to make, big hands dont stand nearly as much of a chance with 7/8 callers at micro poker as they do with 2/3 at higher limits

Honestly guys, this is a similar post to one I have on another thread about this subject and the theme is the same in all the replies, everyone referring to playing 'text book' poker and beating the micro limits easily, truth is I doubt whether most of the posters putting this up have actually beaten the micro limits ever!

Everyone here just posts what they want other people to hear from what I can see, what they think is the right answer, how about some honesty for a change?

[Jimmy Mac]

True, but cards get cracked far more often at micro tables than at higher limits, this is the point im trying to make, big hands dont stand nearly as much of a chance with 7/8 callers at micro poker as they do with 2/3 at higher limits

meh... they get cracked more, that is true. But when your cards hold up, or when you get a monster, you will ship a huge pot. This should more than make up for the times you do get cracked.

If most pots are getting 5 plus callers, maybe you need to loosen up a little and play more drawing hands? Low pairs and suited aces in all positions, suited connectors and maybe even suited kings in position?
I recommend checking out Small Stakes Holdem. Matt Hilgers book, Internet Texas holdem is good too.

[weeian]

Have Matthews book and Lee Jones WLLH.

I give up guys, honestly, micro poker rules OK? Thats more than enough text book "heres what I should be saying" replies on this subject for me.

[Jimmy Mac]

[weeian]

Yeah jimbo, gettin that feeling myself!

[biondino]

True, but cards get cracked far more often at micro tables than at higher limits, this is the point im trying to make, big hands dont stand nearly as much of a chance with 7/8 callers at micro poker as they do with 2/3 at higher limits

meh... they get cracked more, that is true. But when your cards hold up, or when you get a monster, you will ship a huge pot. This should more than make up for the times you do get cracked.

Quoted for being on the fucking money. Weeian, You NEED to understand this EXTREMELY BASIC point about poker otherwise seriously, give up now.

If i was getting near 40% odds to sextuple up in a cash game (with AA) I would be the happiest man alive.

[weeian]

K

[chardrian]

I haven't seen an unhonest answer yet. I honestly have never have played micro-limits, but that doesn't change what I said.

It is a given that your big hands will get cracked more often when more there are more people in the pot. But it should also be a given, and please note this next modifier, IN THE LONG RUN, that you will win more BBs per 100 hands when you are the dominant player at the table.

Now it is true that if you can earn 10 BBs per 100 hands at blinds of .1/.25 and you earn 15 BBs per 100 hands at .01/.02 then yes, you'd be making more money playing the higher limits.

However, I am never going to suggest that someone move up in limits simply because making money at micro-limits is too much of a battle or a grind.

[Gareth]

True, but cards get cracked far more often at micro tables than at higher limits, this is the point im trying to make, big hands dont stand nearly as much of a chance with 7/8 callers at micro poker as they do with 2/3 at higher limits

If you are getting 7-8 callers in NL from a standard raise then raise more - If this is happening in Limit then still raise with your premium hands but also get involved with drawing hands with all these callers.

[weeian]

I haven't seen an unhonest answer yet. I honestly have never have played micro-limits, but that doesn't change what I said.

Well in that case, no harm personally, but that says it all, it is a very different game than anything else, 10 players, capped betting pre flop every 3 or so hands and still 6/7/8 callers, almost impossible.

I accept the points made and have to accept that they are true, it is not impossible to crack micro poker, far from it, but with what i've just told you above its a very very long process, really hard in those circumstances to make any pre flop hand stand up, even at 50/1 you're not getting this type of play.

In the long run is right but in terms of micro poker, its a very very long run is all that im saying and regardless of what is being posted, being in the situation ive posted over and over again takes its toll and is much more frustrating than even a couple levels up.

[Dunk]

Jumping in as a novice... let's see if I'm full of crap or not...

It seems to make sense that the micro-stakes limit holdem would be more frustrating that the micro-stakes no-limit holdem. I specifically am using the word "stakes" instead of "limit" to try to distinguish this.

For instance, in limit you might have to shift your play a lot more from what is good at a normal table. Any pocket pair obviously drops way down the line in value in limit if your going to get that many callers, who can call you cheaply with a capped pot.

In no-limit, at least you might be able to punish the crazies harder and heavier when they keep calling your pot-size bets or even more. So maybe the deviation from a normal set of hand-groupings isn't as severe.

Maybe that also explains some of the difference of opinion we're seeing here - with some people on the limit side and some on NL?

[weeian]

Amen!

At last someone says something sensible on this subject Dunk. Well done.

I'm talkin purely about micro stakes limit, I don't play NL

[Jiggus]

Yeah, might be a good point. I played limit at the .25/50 and .10/.20 stakes for quite a while. Then I saw the light and changed to NL micro-limits ($2).

I'll admit that my game has improved a lot since when I was a limit maroon, but recently, just for a change, I went back and played a bunch of hands at a .25/.50 limit table. What a mistake.

I soon remembered why I quit it in the first place. Yes, at these limits playing a text book game won't happen often, 'cause some dipshit will always call with anything. Aside from that, the blinds in limit just kill. If you happen to not get any decent cards for about 60 or 100 hands your buy-in just gets eaten away.

No Limit micro-stakes are definitely beatable and profitably so.

[betneer]

playmoney is good to start with, i did that and learned the game, learned to read others a fair way, learned everything there and from poker books also a few poker programms, learned odds, pot odds and everything from books.

On realmoney you start learning the deeper things, that most people on playmoney dosnt understand, on playmoney most people just think it dosmt matter cause its not real money, if they think that way they cant even make a basic start, anyway u develop reading hands and the use of pot odds much more on real money.

At first when i started i didnt use a proper bankroll but anyhow the first and second day i was up to like 8 x the money on realmoney, but my advice.. start with a good bankroll, so you can afford to loose.

also, start on 0.25 / 0.50 and 0.50 / 1 if you have played alot of poker on playmoney or read books, else start just on 0.25 / .50 cause then 0.50 / 1 will be hard if u start ur poker on realmoney

// even the author of the post above this one had low starting bankroll, but i had even lower, at 70, but after 3 days i was up to around 360 $, JUST because the experience i got from playmoney was enough to beat the guys at 0.25 / 0.50 and even at .50 / 1

[betneer]

Yeah, might be a good point. I played limit at the .25/50 and .10/.20 stakes for quite a while. Then I saw the light and changed to NL micro-limits ($2).
I'll admit that my game has improved a lot since when I was a limit maroon, but recently, just for a change, I went back and played a bunch of hands at a .25/.50 limit table. What a mistake.

not to be bad to you but.. why cant you start at 0.25 / 0.50 with that bankroll?

and why have you only won 20 $ so far, i mean not to brag but i just started and ive won 50 - 100 $ + a day on .25 / .50 and .50 / 1

[SonOfAkira]

I guess the big debate here is over limit and no-limit... which is more realistic and lower stakes. I myself am not a texas hold em limit player... too addicted to the push.
And being a long time player (7 card stud... brutal), a bit shorter time NL hold em player, and very much shorter time online player, these micro stakes intrigued me.
I thought they would be very hard to beat until I put myself to the test (actually to blow off steam and boredom) and ponied up like the young gentlemen seems to be urging everybody to do. It felt like I wasn't beating the game, but putting the stats into poker tracker, I realized I was winning at over 100 ptBB/100... (eek!) This is only a small sample mind you, about 1200 hands, and the small amount of money made it seem like none was coming my way, but this is obviously very soundly beating a game.

But...

It is my humble opinion that while these micro stakes are very easily beatable, i.e. the notion of quintupling up on a preflop AI with AA, they are very easily beatable playing unsound poker. More specifically, they will teach and ingrain bad habits in an otherwise good poker player.
I posted in another thread about this a few times, but I feel it necessary to reiterate, because i read these posts from these players (freechus, bankitpayette, et al) that contain so much poker knowledge, and it worries me that they might be doing damage to their game playing so much at small stakes.
I don't know how correct I am, but I am interested in any dialogue about the subject.

[chardrian]

I am also a Limit player - so I think for kicks I might give it a go as well.

I can easily imagine that micro-limit is a game of call, call, call, call, call. But I can also imagine that you are getting caught up in the fish net and deciding to join them as well.

Against the masses who coldcall and pray you just need to change your game to raise/fold.

[Jiggus]

Yeah, might be a good point. I played limit at the .25/50 and .10/.20 stakes for quite a while. Then I saw the light and changed to NL micro-limits ($2).
I'll admit that my game has improved a lot since when I was a limit maroon, but recently, just for a change, I went back and played a bunch of hands at a .25/.50 limit table. What a mistake.

not to be bad to you but.. why cant you start at 0.25 / 0.50 with that bankroll?

and why have you only won 20 $ so far, i mean not to brag but i just started and ive won 50 - 100 $ + a day on .25 / .50 and .50 / 1

Ok Capt. Dingleballs, here's the deal. I'm being honest about things.

I started with $150 about, oh, 4 months ago. Of course, I've played for about two years prior to that, maybe dropping another two or three hundred in drunken, crazy poker antics. That's when I was more or less a limit player. I didn't have PT then, I just had a couple of books and my beers. That's when I played all those limit hands, not with what I now consider my "serious" bankroll (and one which I plan not to add to out of my own pocket ever again).

That amount that I put in 4 months ago was going to be my "serious" bankroll. I was still a drunken fool, but I brought that up to well over $200 in a couple of weeks, but I dropped back down to 103 or so shortly thereafter. Then I became a disciple of Aokrongly, and also happened to sober up.

I changed my game to $2NL ONLY (played 6 types before that). I brought that $103 back to over $150 after a few weeks. Then I went to back to $10 NL. Anyhow, after losing $40 or so at the $10 tables, I switched back to $2 only to see myself on a bit of tilt. I couldn't play my game at the ten buck tables due to my low bankroll. I am much more comfortable being "overbankrolled" than with the bare minimum, you see. Dropped back down to around one hundred bucks again.

I should add, I play the odd tourney, so that's cost me a few dollars as well.

Dec. 22 shows my bankroll at Paradise back to $103. As of this morning it was $177 and change. That's playing exclusively $2NL. I'm making just under 17BB/100.

I've moved up once again to $10 NL just this morning, but so far it's just a stalemate.

Obviously, you're not an astute reader, since if you were, you would've realised that I DO NOT play limit any longer. But then again, it looks as if English is not your mother tongue, judging by the functional illiteracy of your writing, so I'll forgive you for that.

If you're making 100 bucks a day playing .25/.50 limit, then you're obviously a poker genius so I would ask you, why don't you move up to $1/$2 or better?

How many hands have you played, anyhow? That'd be interesting to see. When I started getting serious, I soon realised, that you only have a hint of how you're doing after around 10,000 hands. I've got almost 18,000 hands at $2NL so I feel slightly confident in saying that I am crushing that game. You?

But if you're consistently making what you say you are at the limits you play, then you're decidedly on the road to riches, mate, and more power to you.

I'm also not intending to be "mean", simply stern.

Jigs

[Irisheyes]

some of you guys seem to lack a very fundamental understanding of math

[Buzz]

Nice post Jigs. Good luck to you, maybe I'll see you on a 2nl table sometime

Well in that case, no harm personally, but that says it all, it is a very different game than anything else, 10 players, capped betting pre flop every 3 or so hands and still 6/7/8 callers.

If this happened at high stakes good players would be millionaires.

In direct regard to micro stakes limit holdem:

More people seeing showdowns = higher variance giving a higher edge for big hands = A LOT MORE PROFIT.

[Irisheyes]

Holdem Hi: 376992 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win      lose  %lose       tie   %tie        EV
Ac Ad  156775  41.59    220014  58.36       203   0.05     0.416
3d 7h   12334   3.27    351638  93.27     13020   3.45     0.046
2c Qh   30115   7.99    346224  91.84       653   0.17     0.081
7s Jh   27942   7.41    339996  90.19      9054   2.40     0.082
3s 2h    8465   2.25    363908  96.53      4619   1.23     0.028
6s 7c   42799  11.35    325139  86.25      9054   2.40     0.121
Kd 9h   26611   7.06    346424  91.89      3957   1.05     0.076
Ks Ts   54727  14.52    318308  84.43      3957   1.05     0.150

See the way AA has the highest win percentage!!?

You can't argue with that. Go figure.

[Pelion]

Holdem Hi: 376992 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win      lose  %lose       tie   %tie        EV
Ac Ad  156775  41.59    220014  58.36       203   0.05     0.416
3d 7h   12334   3.27    351638  93.27     13020   3.45     0.046
2c Qh   30115   7.99    346224  91.84       653   0.17     0.081
7s Jh   27942   7.41    339996  90.19      9054   2.40     0.082
3s 2h    8465   2.25    363908  96.53      4619   1.23     0.028
6s 7c   42799  11.35    325139  86.25      9054   2.40     0.121
Kd 9h   26611   7.06    346424  91.89      3957   1.05     0.076
Ks Ts   54727  14.52    318308  84.43      3957   1.05     0.150

See the way AA has the highest win percentage!!?

You can't argue with that. Go figure.

[sarcasm]
Yea but they win the 40% with AA and I only win the 1.59%. My aces always get cracked.



[/sarcasm]


seriously id much rather win an 8 handed pot where everyone goes to showdown 40% of the time than a 2 handed pot 70% of the time.

[dvda]

Wow this post just keeps on going. Here is my 2cents


I started playing for play-money on pokerstars a few months back. After 3ish months I won over 200,000 in play money just playing limit hold’em, it was pretty easy. I played the one big card one small card and all that other crap. Never raised before the flop because all 5 community cards are going to be dealt 95% of the time. My point is I played a way that is not recommended, but played winning play-money poker.

Now I’m playing real money, @ .10/.20 and I have changed my style of play to only playing good starting hands and raising with them. These two links have helped guide my new style of play.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/chart_starting_hands.html
http://www.flopturnriver.com/Why-You...it-Holdem.html

Currently it is not working out for me. I have lost around 60% of my bankroll over the past week. A lot of the players @ .10/.20 play the same poker as was being played @ the play-money tables. If I had the bankroll I would try and to revert back to my play-money tactics because these are the same tactics that are taking most of my money on the real money tables.

Chardrian mentions that he may give this micro “limit” hold’em a try. I would encourage all the seasoned players to give them a go too. Maybe we need a new post of how to beat micro limit poker! If I find away I’ll let you know.

[weeian]

More people seeing showdowns = higher variance giving a higher edge for big hands = A LOT MORE PROFIT.

OK, so heres the one thats the recurrent theme on this thread;

A lot more callers see the flop = your big hands getting cracked much much more frequently by bad but lucky cards = you loosing a lot of bets

Chardrian mentions that he may give this micro “limit” hold’em a try. I would encourage all the seasoned players to give them a go too. Maybe we need a new post of how to beat micro limit poker! If I find away I’ll let you know.

I agree 110%, lets see the 'more seasoned' players have a go at micro poker, your patience won't last longer than 1 hour and you'll then get the jist of my view on this topic. Micro poker that i refer to specifically is Pacific 5/10c Limit, although i'm sure 5/10c is probably the same anywhere else.

[Irisheyes]

Where abouts in NI are you? I'm a Louth man.

[midas06]

I played the smallest stakes LHE at Stars the other day after reading this thread.

I played very, very tight. If I had used PT, I think my vp$ip would have been in the low teens. Most times I played a hand, I came in for a raise.

This game is easily beatable. Sure I could have been on a heater, but just by playing quality cards and being aggressive, in other words playing ABC Tagg poker, I destroyed the game.

[dvda]

Here is an example:

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A, K.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 7, T, A (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button folds, SB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 3 (3 players)
SB checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, MP1 calls.

River: (15 BB) T (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

[Blinky]

[quote="weeian']
OK, so heres the one thats the recurrent theme on this thread;

A lot more callers see the flop = your big hands getting cracked much much more frequently by bad but lucky cards = you loosing a lot of bets
[quote]

This is true... but work out the math. Let's use Irisheyes' post and assume that you hold AA. Every hand has a single bet that is called by all players, thus the final pot is

preflop: 8SB
flop: 8SB
turn: 8BB
river 8BB
Total final pot= 24 BB (ignoring rake)

Your investment is 1SB + 1 SB + 1 BB + 1BB = 3 Big Bets.
You are risking 3 Big bets or putting up 3/24 = 12.5% of the pot

You expect to win 41.6% of each of these AA hands. (EV as calculated above). Therefore every time you put up 12.5% of the pot and expect to get 41.6% of the pot (9.8 Big Bets) in return... do this enough times and you're rolling in the dough.

In the short term there is indeed a greater chance of your premium hands getting cracked, but in the long run you have a positive expectation.

[weeian]

I'm gonna opt out of this thread now guys as it sjust going round in cicrles, now we have people suggesting that you will win with AA enough of the time at micro poker to prove that its beatable easily? What about all the other premium hands, again, I urge anyone who is posting on this topic and who hasn't played micro poker, and there are quite a few here it seems, to give it a go then come back and let us all know how easy it is.

As well as that we have someone who played a short session presumably at 10/20 and won so therefore the gameseasily beatable!

[midas06]

I played the smallest stakes LHE at Stars the other day after reading this thread.

I played very, very tight. If I had used PT, I think my vp$ip would have been in the low teens. Most times I played a hand, I came in for a raise.

This game is easily beatable. Sure I could have been on a heater, but just by playing quality cards and being aggressive, in other words playing ABC Tagg poker, I destroyed the game.

[midas06]

Stop continually trying to convince yourself that microlimits are not easily beatable. They are.

[biondino]

Weeian, if we can't even use stone cold mathematical fact tp prove you wrong, how the hell are we supposed to use rhetoric?

Even at the lowest stakes, someone has to lose. And it seems that someone is you.

[weeian]

So mathematically proving that AA wins most of the time proves the point that micro limits are beatable then?

Honestly guys, most of you have just completely missed the point here and are still babbling out the same old crap over and over.

Maybe your right, oh all knowing poker god, maybe I am the only looser here

[dvda]

Weeian I feel your pain.

Being a micro limit player I know where you are coming from. AA does hold up but hardly ever you are playing them. The fish take your money playing two crap cards that should have been folded. The fish then lose your money to everyone else except you. They say “nice hand” when hitting 3 of a kind, after starting with Q,2. The list goes on!
You know what I’m talking about!

You are just going through a bad spell you can turn it around, just keep playing good poker. So, you have not finished a session up in over a week, your bankroll is in taters. It’s all right, “this time next year we’re be millionaires”.

Hope it helps!

[biondino]

We're using AA so that the hard of thinking can follow an easy example. And because if we can't convince you that YOU WILL WIN LOTS OF MONEY OVER TIME WITH AA then there's sod all point in trying to explain it about AQ or JJ or some other good starting hand.

And it's "loser", one O.

[weeian]

Oh dear, and i thought it was unspoken good manners not to correct someones spelling and/or grammar on a forum like this, strikes me as an example, if another one was needed after your previous post, of what an arrogant bastard you are Biondino (or whatever). Catch a grip of yourself, if you wanna offer some advice then good, if you just wanna poke fun at a spelling mistake you immature twat, then do it some where else please.

And furthermore, you seem to be another poster on this thread who thinks were talking about NL poker, we're not! Perhaps if you actually read the post before stating the obvious it would help. Have you ever even played micro LIMIT stakes poker? I guess no!

You have completely missed the point of this entire thread and still you dispense the invaluable advice that AA will win lots of money in the long run, priceless, what would the forum do without your insight??

[SuperDave9x19]

I'm gonna opt out of this thread now guys !

smart move. fold a losing hand

More people seeing showdowns = higher variance giving a higher edge for big hands = A LOT MORE PROFIT.

OK, so heres the one thats the recurrent theme on this thread;

A lot more callers see the flop = your big hands getting cracked much much more frequently by bad but lucky cards = you loosing a lot of bets

Your big hands getting cracked = bad beats = YOU had an edge but got unlucky.

Correct?

Think of your latest horrible beat. If you simulate that hand a million times, how much do you think you would be down?

You wouldn't. You'd be up huge, because you had an edge, your play was +EV but you got unlucky. And the more times you play a hand, the more true the Maths will get, and therefore you get a profit from +EV plays.

It's all about the long run and not about bad beats.

[biondino]

Dwarfy, watch out, you're saying the same as I was and look what happened to me!

Oh, and can anyone clarify for me that AA is a good hand in limit as well as NL? It seems I might have made a mistake assuming so.

(yes, it is a bit rude to correct someone else's spelling, but it's amazing how many people can't spell "loser" which tends to deflect a bit of the force of an insult The way I see it, correcting the spelling is like pointing out to someone that they have a bit of cake on their face - a bit embarrassing, but everyone's happier afterwards)

[dvda]

I think most of you are still missing the point. Yes, AA is a good hand, it will make you lots and lots of money, everyone agrees with that, end of story please.

The point is, AA will be cracked more at micro limits than higher limits because a raise is not respected, people will keep calling all the way to the river regardless of the raises.

[mb2447]

Who really cares about the number of times a hand (AA) is cracked? Poker is about making money, not winning hands. The pots that you win against idiots who put in lots of bets (limit or NL, really no difference) with significantly worse hands against your premium hands more than make up for the times that they suck out on you.

It's pure math. Better starting hands against worse starting hands will win money in the long run.

[Toe]

people will keep calling all the way to the river regardless of the raises.

YOU SHOULD BE VERY HAPPY ABOUT THIS

[dvda]

[QUOTE="drawfman"]

Your big hands getting cracked = bad beats = YOU had an edge but got unlucky.

Correct?

Think of your latest horrible beat. If you simulate that hand a million times, how much do you think you would be down?

You wouldn't. You'd be up huge, because you had an edge, your play was +EV but you got unlucky. And the more times you play a hand, the more true the Maths will get, and therefore you get a profit from +EV plays.

It's all about the long run and not about bad beats.

Yes Correct

[QUOTE="dvda"]

The point is, AA will be cracked more at micro limits than higher limits

Correct? I think so

people will keep calling all the way to the river regardless of the raises.

YOU SHOULD BE VERY HAPPY ABOUT THIS

Correct, I should be happy, but after losing 90% of my bankroll to this “playing all the way to the river” I'm not happy.

Micro limit is very frustrating, yes it is beatable, yes premium hands will win in the long run. Lets all agree to disagree, and stick to offering each other some advice and support.

[chardrian]

Ok Capt. Dingleballs, here's the deal.

what an arrogant bastard you are ...you immature twat

Here's the deal boys and girls. This is the beginner's section. As such, as your kindergarten teacher used to say there really is no stupid question or comment.

This post is a reminder to all about how to behave themselves in this forum.

FTR prides itself on being a forum where you will get friendly, but honest advice.

You can and should criticize comments that you believe are incorrect. However there is absolutely no need for name-calling, even if it is meant in jest.

Also, when you get criticized - even if it is sternly done, suck it up. Responding to criticism by in essence calling the criticizer a retard is not going to make your argument in any way more persuasive. If you believe that the criticism is unwarranted, explain why - without denigrating posts into flame wars.

Don't make me use my powers of editing and deleting.

I hope you enjoyed this Mr. Roger's moment as much as I enjoyed writing it.

[Warpe]

immature twat

I draw the line at 16.

[SonOfAkira]

Just say no to

[weeian]

Micro limit is very frustrating, yes it is beatable, yes premium hands will win in the long run. Lets all agree to disagree, and stick to offering each other some advice and support.

Couldn't agree more, I'm for that, well said.