Overbetting to protect a hand.

[Fortune 500]

Last night, I was dealt Big Slick. Flop gives me a king, but two clubs on the board.

Blinds were only at 10 (First round of a SNG). I raised to 50 (5xBB) and got 5 callers.

Flop was 7 10 K, with the two clubs. Pots at 305, so I fire out a 300 bet. Folds all but two. Next card off was an ace... For two pair. Again, I bet about 3/4 pot, which essentially pot commits me... One fold, and an all in, which I'm obliged to call.

Long story short, the all in player held the 6-3 of clubs and caught the 5th club on the river for the flush.

I understand my opponent made a bad play, and if we play that same hand 100 times, i'll make a killing... I'm at peace with the beat.

But my question is this: At lower limits of SNGs, do you have to throw out the old rules of 3-4XBB to thin the field? This is something I've come across a lot lately. When the blinds get up to 100, throwing out 500 is enough to be effective (Also by this point, the crap has been weeded out).

but at the lower limits, even a 5xBB bet is ineffective: 6 callers? Now, the last couple callers I could see based on pot odds, but 6-3 of clubs was to my immediate left. Not that I give him credit for pot odd calculations, anyway.

So, do you raise more at this level to protect your hands?
Thoughts?

[JeffreyGB]

I've been mulling this over as well - but came to no conclusion as of yet. I partly suspect that there are looser players in the beginning anyway, meaning that they'll call a lot more than they should (ultimately loosing out by the middle of the tournament). But whether that would mean increasing your raises would do the trick, I don't know...I've tried it some and it works part of the time and doesn't other parts of the time.

- Jeffrey

P.S. I had almost the same bad beat tonight, but the ace came on the flop instead of the king.

[Waggho]

Yeah it´s really an odd situation in the early stages of a tourney. Blinds don´t mean nothing to most people which makes it awkward to play at all. I mean, the thousand or so chips you have now is so much more valuable than the other thousand you´d get if you doubled up, and you don´t want to lose too much in this stage of the tournament. Also, there are also often some maniac (like the one at your table) that is willing to go all-in with a one time out of six flush draw or something similar, which means you don´t want to get too pot commited.

After all, I think the whole thing with manipulating pot odds loses much of its value when the chips you hold are much more valuable than the ones you could win. Also, an overbet that makes all people fold brings you in nothing but penny blinds for your effort. I think pot sized on flop is good, but not the 3/4 pot size bet on turn that makes you pot commited. Stay out of pot commitment until the blinds get higher.

[Penneywize]

Best solution - don't play the first three rounds of SnGs. Seriously. If you get KK, you can and will run into AA. AK is even weaker. Of course you're allowed to play premium hands (only!) in the first 3 rounds, but bad beats like what you described will inevitably occur. See the flop and go from there. Two clubs made things a little dangerous. If it were a regular ring game your move would have been perfect, but in early in an SnG you have to play every chip as if it were your last. Don't try to buy the pot when you know some twerp is going to call with a flush draw. I would have checked and possibly even folded to any sign of strength from another player. People tend to think that just because the blinds are small early on in SnGs they are supposed to play loose.

[BreakfastMan]

Fortune 500, are you asking if you should have bet more pre-flop or post flop?

I think you pre-flop bet of 5x BB while holding AK was certainly high enough. If you went higher (6-8 x BB) you could still get called and you are only holding AK, which dose not mean much unless you get something on the flop. How much are you willing to throw away if you didn’t get a piece of the flop?

Taken to extreme you could have gone all in, this most likely would have won the hand, but you would only pick up the blinds and whatever bets were before you. The only time someone would call is when he or she would most likely have you beat pre-flop with AA, KK etc. So all-in doesn’t make sense to me.

If you are asking about your post-flop bets, I think those were fine as well. Your pot size bet post flop would be the most I would commit. You could be beat a few ways here. It is a big enough bet to get that information.

In summary, the reason you are betting a multiple of the blinds, is because with a raise, you may only win the blinds. The only time I would consider a bigger raise is if I was in last or second last position and more than 5 people limped in. Then I would match the amount that was in the pot.

Thanks,
BreakfastMan

[DavSimon]

No way to avoid this crackpot.....if he was going all the way to the river with that baby flush draw - you could have pushed on the flop and he would still have called. It probably never even occured to him that you may be on a flush draw as well - holding the Ace or King of clubs...betting top pair. I can't count the number of times I have out-kicked a smaller flush, it never seems to occur to them that I may be holding suited cards that are bigger.
The betting was fine, you simply got outdrawn. I generally will fire out a $100 PFR even when blinds are 10/20 and $150 when blinds are 15/30. I still get callers but there is somthing about $100-150 that at least makes the limpers sit up and take notice.

[SteveO]

Well played, it was a crappy beat. To answer your question, yes you need to adjust your game significantly in early rounds of tournaments. There is usually a threshold that will fold out even loose and stupid players. If you are in early position and blinds are 10/15 and you have a big pair, raise 5-6 xs BB. If flop isn't scary blast em AI. Go big or go to another SNG.

If you are in late position with a monster, double or triple the pot. It would be fine to just pick up the dead money from all the limpers and hopefully you will get a loose call and double up.

Otherwise, join the limp fest and hope to hit a monster flop or sit out the first 3 rounds.

[Radashack]

I disagree that you played it right. Your pot sized bet was ok, but your turn bet was not, you said you bet enough to feel pot comitted, you have top two pair, if the guy had trips he would have re-raised your flop bet, the Ace could have at best gave him a worse two pair, then only draw was to a flush, at this point you push AI to protect your hand if you feel that you will be pot comitted with a large raise, he could have called, but then again he could have folded as well, his intent could have been to scare you off repping that the Ace made his hand, by your extreme strength he could have laid down his draw and had no room to bluff at the pot.

I venture to guess this guy was more of a semibluff at a large part thinking if he could take it down there he was in awsome shape, It also reads likea bluff because he made his move when the ace fell no on the flop when he had his flush draw.

Of course he could have been an idiot, but assumeing such things ends up loseing you money in the long run.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Maybe it's just me, im used to playing with loose mofo's at my home game, sometimes i just raise 7x BB to just get it in their head that their two suited cards aren't good. I get bad beat so much it helps to just do that. Maybe it's a bad idea, listen to the pros here

[Fortune 500]

Great advice, all... I don't think i played the hand poorly, but I think Rada is right. If I felt pot committed, I probably should have just shoved on the turn. I don't doubt that he would have called the bet... but that's irrelevant. I actually WANT him to call that bet.

In terms of the PFR, I'm jut going to play around with it, and maybe kick up the initial betting in the early rounds... though avoiding the first three altogether is somewhat sound advice, the fear of running into AA when holding KK is just scared thinking. However, the idea of sitting there waiting only for premiums while the junk cleans itself out may be more efficient than any PFR strategy.

[SteveO]

It was fine play in the sense that his calls were incorrect preflop, flop and turn. As Rada pointed out could have gone AI on the turn but not necessarily incorrect to suck out some more chips assuming he missed his river.

[Radashack]

its fine to extract value with your hands, but the more you try extract value the more you open yourself up to being out drawn. Yes you want plays like that guy made, moreso in cash games then a tourney structure though, any time you are putting the vast majority of your chips on the line, you want the least risk possible, IE the guy folding out. I'd take pots won without showdows anyday over letting my oppoenets draw to the river.

If you are winning pots at the showdown you are playing good poker
If you are winning pots without a showdown you are playing great poker.

[aleksandr]

Push all in when you hit your twopair - put HIM on the decision and say that you know you have the hand. Betting the pot reveals you for a pair or two pair.