Question on being frustrated and sticking to your game

[booradly07]

Hi,

I'm a relatively new player (6 months) and I've been playing in local home games, card rooms and online pretty religiously for the past 4 months. I actually started playing during the time that poker has become a fad but I didn't even realize it was a fad because I don't get (or at the time I didn't get) the channels on TV that telivise poker events. So, I don't consider myself to be a fad player, I LOVE this game. I'm the kind of person who is very competitive and never likes to loose to anyone at anything (except maybe my friends) but I can also take my losses in stride and continue to research and try and become better at everything I do.

I haven't been doing too bad and I think I have potential to be a great player. I've been playing limit and no-limit Holdem and I seem to have more of a skill and love for the no-limit game. However, this brings me to the topic of this post.

It seems that for the past month I have been on a terrible loosing streak. Allot of times I can look back and see where I've made mistakes and I am learning from them but I really fell that I am on one of those streaks where I wonder why I am even playing the game and if the 'poker gods' are trying to tell me to stay away.

For example, I was in Las Vegas this past week and played no limit holdem for around 10 hours total (including one tournament event). The whole time I literally never made a hand better than 1 pair (no 2 pair, no pair improved to a set on the flop etc...) The best hand I was ever dealt was KK which I was dealt twice this weekend and both times I was beaten,once by AA, (a fair beat that I possibly should have seen coming) and another time by what might have been a maniac who called my 5x big blind bet with 67o only to flop a 7 high straight (3, 4, 5 rainbow) and take my whole stack because I didn't see it coming (why would he call my bet with that hand, I just couldn't see it and thought he was bluffing as I didn't put him on a low pair or worse low connectors making 2 pair) when he came over the top of me and set me all in I called. Anyway, I digress. Like I said I've just had a terrible time of late because I am waiting to play premium hands but those premium hands just don't seem to come to me and when they do I still get beat, sometimes through misplay but mostly, seemingly, through the fates just not being with me. Lots of AQ AK that never improve to a pair or better, lots of low pairs that never improve to a set etc...

I am not discouraged about my skills as I know I will get better over time but I am discouraged about the run of cards I am getting. Does this happen to everyone or am I just a poker pariah? How long can a bad run last and if my bad run is this long (in sheer terms of the cards I am dealt, not how I proceed to play them) can I expect to sometimes hit a good run where I am going to see lots of hands that are ahead pre-flop and most of the time stay ahead after the flop etc...? Has anyone had a good run of a month or more where they can't seem to loose a hand (to mirror my run where I can't seem to win one).

Also, if any of you have experienced really long runs of bad pocket cards do you change your play and start playing more mediocre hands (89o, K3s etc...) or do you just keep folding and hope to start getting better hands. Its hard to sit down at a table and fold 30 hands in a row only to see other looser players winning on hands that you would never play by the books or at least playing hands out of position and calling bets and winning consistantly etc...

I know some of these things are tainted by my newbie eyes and I can't see opportunities or traps that some more experienced players may take for granted at their level but I would like to get some feedback about my two main points.

A. Are these really bad runs just a part of the game and I have to just get through it and...

B. Do you change your play when you know you are in a bad run and start playing cards that you normally wouldn't play when the cards are being dealt out 'even' or in your favor.

Regards,

Boo

[Humphrind]

In regards to your general message. Yes, you have to realize that holdem is a game of peaks and valleys and you will not win every hand. What holdem is about is playing the law of averages in your favor, so you win more than you will lose.

However, something that you will realize with experience and skill is that the bad beats come fewer and further between. They still happen, and sometimes it can be daunting when bad beats seem to stack up on you. The key is to not dwell. When something bad happens, just blow it off and focus on the next hand.

Also, feel free to post some specific hand histories. We can look at them and see about finding missed opportunities, errors or other things that maybe you didn't see.

Good luck.

[Miggo]

B. Do you change your play when you know you are in a bad run and start playing cards that you normally wouldn't play when the cards are being dealt out 'even' or in your favor.

If you feel you have the potential to be a great poker player, than you know better than to ask this. Be patient and play your game. I haven't been playing long, but have been playing alot, and one thing I've learned. Anyone can win with monster hands, but the money is really made in knowing when to lay down the second best hand. I think if you start playing cards you normally wouldn't play, you're going to be chasing alot and really break that rule.

Good luck, man. I think you have to just wait it out. Maybe skip a day playing, or at least take a break after that A4 cracks your AA, and come back to it later.

[DavSimon]

A. Are these really bad runs just a part of the game and I have to just get through it and...

Yes they are part of the game, what will differentiate a winning player from a losing player is the answer to your second question. You have to remain disciplined in the face of a bad streak - stick to your game and things will turn around. I have gone gone on a 10 day - 2 week winning rip, where whatever I did turned out well. I am in the midst of a 2 week lull (break even really) where I am fovored going into the flop or turn only to get beat on the river....it happens alot. You just have to stay the course as it were and things will get better again. I tend to forget about the couple of times I sat down at a ring game this weekend and doubled up on the first or second hand...when I bust out of every MTT I have entered in the last 6 days (point being thing are not always as bad as they initially seem)....in the end being successful, means looking at things over the long haul. If you get bogged down in the daily losses it will adversly effect your game. if there are no glaring leaks in your game the only advice we can give you is: "chin up" thing will get better.

[booradly07]

Thanks allot for all of your reply's.

I guess I did need a kick in the pants to say 'suck it up and keep playing good poker kid'. I didn't really think anyone was going to tell me that I should loosen up and start playing the bad hands that tease you then end up leaving you well dominated and without any lube. But, I had to ask.

Yeah, I know I have leaks to fill and I'm working on it all the time. I suppose everyone has some.

I have read allot on here and other forums that you want people to play those bad cards, to fish/chase etc., so that the better players can punish them when they have a strong holding or the nuts and make money off of their bad moves. It just seems I am in one of those ruts where the maniac's (or idiots as I call them) always draw out on you even though you are making respectable sized, calculated bets at the pot. If people don't understand or don't care about odds I guess it will eventually shift back into my favor, it only makes sense. I did have a good night last night on PP so maybe things are looking up again.

Its re-assuring to know that other people also go through extended periods of 'bad cards' and fight through it till the days that things turn out better. I think I need to work on absolutley minimizing my exposure during these times and not letting a run of bad luck cloud my judgement etc...

Well, I love this forum, (I've been lurking for a while) and I hope to be a contributor myself sometime. I will post some hand history's though as I do have some questions on my play. I have to go figure out where the best place to do that is.

Regards,

Boo

[Radashack]

Just an example... I just broke a 1 month streak of horrible cards and beats, where I litterally didn't win a thing. I played a great game and lost and lost and lost. Last night I won the 10$ freezeout on stars to break my month long streak, and more then make up for the losses of the past month.

There can be some brutal streaks, it happens. Talked to nay great poker player, many of them have had similar streaks.

Good luck

[DillingerEscape]

I just lost roughly 30% of my bankroll in one session. I believe a made a few mistakes, but the ones that cost me the most were bad beats.

I never went on tilt after those beats, I just sucked it up.

On the good side, I still have enough in my bankroll to sustain the huge swing. I can still play at the same blinds I currently play at.

This is the biggest loss/swing I've ever had. I haven't lost this much before in a week, let alone one session. Has anyone had any similar experiences? How many bad beats can you take in one session before you call it quits? I'll try playing tomorrow, hopefully things will change.

[DavSimon]

DillingerEscape, I just learned recently....very recently (thanks Soupie) that you should not be risking more than about 5% of your bankroll in MTTs and no more than about 10% in SnGs in a single session. This will ensure your bankroll does not take a significant or near fatal hit if you go on a losing streak. This will also ensure that you have smaller but very steady gains in your bank roll. As your bankroll increases you can increase the stakes you play at always sticking to the 5-10% guideline.
If your bankroll is $500....this means you can play in a single $50 SnG, five $10 SnGs, or ten $5 SNGs - you choose....but once you are done, you are done. If you lost 30% of your bankroll in one session...you are probably playing stakes you shouldn't be playing at....or you played far too long at stakes you should be playing at. At any rate losing that much in one session is a recipe for disaster in the long run.

[booradly07]

Hey, just wanted to give an update. It does look like my current bad run of cards is over. Or, perhaps, it is just a deceptive, sneaky bastard run of good cards sprinkled into the middle of a longer downhill run. Only time will tell. Last night I can say I was getting more than my fair share of good hands though so it helped to make up for the downswing in a big way because I played those hands full tilt and it paid off big, a couple of times I even flopped the nuts and was able to sit back and let other people do the betting for me.

Last night I played my normal game and was doing ok but then I got cocky and started to fall so I stepped back and started playing solid poker again and built my wad back up then I got cocky again (when do I learn) and fell low once more. Then I think a truly permanent game changing experience happened when I smacked myself, asking myself WHY I wanted to make these bets and why I needed to play all of these hands. I stopped playing for a moment and really discovered that I wanted the action. Well, I figured out I was laying a trap for myself by doing this and that I was getting more satisfaction taking down pots with a good hand when I had it than when I was speculating and trying to get in on the action and get lucky. It wasn't that I was dumping allot of money into the pot to try and get lucky, I was limping in and getting out when it didn't hit but the swing in my money was too great when I was speculating because I always still wanted to be perceived as strong and agressive on any pot I went in on so it was slowly eating away at my stack over the course of hands in between truly good holdings and so I was slowly loosing money over time because of this rather than slowly building money over time. I decided that the only way to maintain this strong image was to always showdown the best hand which means I needed to curtail my need for action. I started looking at some of the things I was doing. With a few tweaks to which hands I was speculating on and how I played the hands I did play I was able to turn it around and won quite a bit in the NL ring game. Actually, I figured out on PP if I just played tight and bet on only the best hands that the callers would come and it worked out well for me. To sum this part up, I got more satisfaction out of building a good strong table image where people were fearful of me and taking down pots with the best hands and stealing pots when they were fearful of my holdings than the rush I was getting from just being in on the action. Lets face it winning money is fun and losing money can also be fun but certainly not for the same reasons.

One thing I noticed is that anytime I wasn't the agressor I lost most of the time. When I turned around and started to drop out of pots that I had a decent hand on (if I was not the one initially opening the betting) and dropping those hands when there was a bet in front of me that I made the right move most of the time. As of last night I have pretty much decided that if I'm not the first one being agressive from the get-go I will not play the hand, period unless I truly have a monster starting hand. More good hands will come. This may be shortsighted of me but it seems to be a good observation based on my limited experience.

So, anyway, I just wanted to chirp up with some good results. No, I'm not going to keep posting if I hit a bad run and again when it gets good. Based on response from the community I can see that its an up and down experience and that's just poker.

Oh, and I did hit one good run where I was dealt AKo, AA, QQ, AA almost back to back and I took down every hand with a good pot because no one believed me. Once my table stakes got up to around $90 (from a $25 max buy-in) it started to trail off because people were really starting to respect my bets. I didn't get as many huge pots but I still built it up to $125 before I went to bed just by making my bets and watching everybody fold. It was a great experience to finally see a little respect at the table and watch 4 previous wild callers all fold their hands to me when I would make a $2 bet because they know I was going in with the best of it. A great lesson learned.

Regards,

Boo

[TylerK]

and another time by what might have been a maniac who called my 5x big blind bet with 67o only to flop a 7 high straight (3, 4, 5 rainbow) and take my whole stack because I didn't see it coming (why would he call my bet with that hand, I just couldn't see it and thought he was bluffing as I didn't put him on a low pair or worse low connectors making 2 pair) when he came over the top of me and set me all in I called.

Just wanted to address this aside. Depending on your stack size related to the size of the blinds, this can sometimes be a good call for him preflop if he puts you on a big pair, due to implied odds. If he hits a flop hard, he can be pretty confident that he can take your whole stack, and if not he can get out for a relatively small loss.

[booradly07]

OK, this is a good point you bring up and I didn't really look at it this way at the time but I can see some logic in it. Can we discuss what hitting it hard would be for him? Obviously flopping the nut straight would be hitting it hard but really what are the odds of this happening. I figure the odds of him making this draw on me, or any made straight draw, not just the nuts, on the flop (and I'm not really using any scientific method I'm just pulling a good guess out of my ass) are around 12 to 1. If that figure is near correct then I can't see how it would be a good bet for him to make this call over any amount of time. More likely he would hit 4 to the straight or 2 pair which would still be a scary proposition for him to make an all in decision on or to even just call my bet. Perhaps I'm not really figuring all of the options that he had to make a solid hand against a pair of kings which he most likely did put me on Jacks or better in the pocket. He could have flopped a full house or 3 of a kind etc... but then again that can't really be figured to his advantage because I could just as easily pull the same thing with high two pair, a set or a full house if the board paired etc...
Obviously he could then fold if he didn't hit it big but again I'm not completely sure that I agree that its a good proposition bet (is that the right phrase?) for him to make given the odds of him hitting it given the same situation 10 times in a row. I would absolutely call him all in before the flop every time if I knew he was holding 67o but then again maybe that is a dumb statement. I'm willing to keep my eyes open to that possibility.
OK, I guess that is a bit rambling but the jist of it is, lets discuss what hands he was really trying to hit and what the real odds of him pulling a better hand than me are.

I do understand implied odds and obviously if he hits a hand hard then the implied odds against my kings are astounding because its a very hard hand to lay down on a raggedy ass flop...

Lets discuss if anyone has anything to add.

Regards,

Boo

[TylerK]

Ok, let's make some assumptions.

First, let's assume that he knows you have an overpair and that he can get your whole stack in.

Second, let's assume that as you said, his chances of beating your single big pair on the flop is 1 in 12.

Third, let's assume you are betting 5xBB preflop.

11/12 times, he loses 5xBB, or 55BB.

If your stack is LARGER than 55BB, he can call in this situation and be profitable over time.

Edit: obviously your stack needs to have his covered in this situation.

[booradly07]

OK, that makes does make some sense then in the right situations like only doing it when your pretty sure the other guy has a large pair like the KK and he has a large stack to invest so that you could double up.

When the hand started (I was BB) my stack was at 38xBB, his was about 60xBB by the looks of it so it was an iffy call for him but I'm not nitpicking your logic. This is actually very interesting strategy. Perhaps my loss will be my gain someday.

Cheers, MC and best regards to all,

Boo