PRE-FLOP RAISING HANDS IN NO LIMIT~PLEASE HELP

[BILLABONG]

I have asked this over n over and never really got a answer. As of right now I only raise with AK in early pos before the flop, and AQ in late pos before the flop. Can you give me a list of hands I should be raising with before the flop for early,middle,and late position?

[TylerK]

J5s, 84o, 66, and 32s.

Seriously, that's a whole can of worms, and in any situation the answer is "it depends." For some guidelines, though, check out Tyson's preflop strategy essays on the front page.

[gabe]

buy a high rated poker book, it will help you with alot more things besides pre flop raising

[dalecooper]

There's no easy answer to this. I tend to be more aggressive and I will raise from any position at most tables with KJ or better. The size of the raise varies considerably though. I don't have a standard raise for all so-called "raising hands." I will raise bigger with high pairs to try to take the pot down immediately, or at least limit the competition to one player. With more vulnerable hands like KJ, KQ, AJ, AQ, and AK I usually raise enough to weed out weak hands (min. 2X BB)... the raise gets bigger in late position. For example with a .50 BB I might raise to $1.50 from early position, but $2.00 or $2.50 in late position, with the same hand (depending on its strength - wouldn't over-raise like that with KJ from any seat). If I get re-raised, I might just muck my hand. A lot of people are scared to play borderline stuff like KJ and especially scared to raise with it from early position, but if you're confident in your post-flop play, and you don't mind folding to a re-raise pre-flop, you can do just fine.

But "it all depends." Depends on the table, if anyone else there is very aggressive, etc. You don't want to get into raise wars with someone else who raises any decent hand and is always trying to steal your bets.

[Bite]

The size of the raise varies considerably though. I don't have a standard raise for all so-called "raising hands." I will raise bigger with high pairs to try to take the pot down immediately, or at least limit the competition to one player. With more vulnerable hands like KJ, KQ, AJ, AQ, and AK I usually raise enough to weed out weak hands (min. 2X BB)... the raise gets bigger in late position.

This is not very good imho. If you raise high pairs bigger than other raise hands people will soon get a good read on what you're holding. But if you think you will get called you should off course try to get as much of your stack in as possible with high pairs KK,AA. Problem is people won't call you if they know you hold AA,KK. And with AA and KK at least I want to get called, or better, reraised. A lot of people says " well u will only get outdrawn". True, heads up with AA you SHOULD get outdrawn about 20% of the time. Doesn't mean I don't want to play it. I'd rather take my chances with a hand with 80% chance of winning instead of picking up the blinds with a monster. That's why I tend to allways raise the size of the pot plus maybe some extra bb for each limper in NL, and allways the size of the pot in PL (gotta build it) unless I'm up against really really fishy opponents who I know won't know the difference if I change the amount between different hands. Also after the flop it can vary a little depending on what I think my opponent has. I don't want to get reverse implied odds. But overbetting high pairs preflop is only stupid unless someone else raised before you because you will not get called by most opponents. And a call (or better a reraise) is just what you want, at least if you want to make money.

[dalecooper]

This is not very good imho. If you raise high pairs bigger than other raise hands people will soon get a good read on what you're holding.

Much depends on the situation. I don't raise every hand the same way every time. I mix it up depending on my position, how many people have limped or bet ahead of me, and how strong my hand is. I don't have a little chart saying "bet x amount if you get KK"... it's all about my feeling on how vulnerable the hand is, and what it would take to get the right amount of callers. Or none, if that's preferable. I'll raise bigger than pot-sized with JJ or QQ to steal a decent pre-flop pot with a bunch of limpers, or I'll limp AA if there's only one other person in and I'd like to take a flop and make a little money on the hand. My point is, nothing is written in stone, which is the mistake a lot of people make when they are new to poker (and particularly, poker books). A buddy of mine has a list of raising hands and makes the same raise every time when he has one of them, no matter what position he's in or who else is playing. That to me is not good.

[Bite]

This is not very good imho. If you raise high pairs bigger than other raise hands people will soon get a good read on what you're holding.

Much depends on the situation. I don't raise every hand the same way every time. I mix it up depending on my position, how many people have limped or bet ahead of me, and how strong my hand is. I don't have a little chart saying "bet x amount if you get KK"... it's all about my feeling on how vulnerable the hand is, and what it would take to get the right amount of callers. Or none, if that's preferable. I'll raise bigger than pot-sized with JJ or QQ to steal a decent pre-flop pot with a bunch of limpers, or I'll limp AA if there's only one other person in and I'd like to take a flop and make a little money on the hand. My point is, nothing is written in stone, which is the mistake a lot of people make when they are new to poker (and particularly, poker books). A buddy of mine has a list of raising hands and makes the same raise every time when he has one of them, no matter what position he's in or who else is playing. That to me is not good.

The problem is it's very hard not to be predictable if you raise big hands more than other. Off course I don't suggest you allways raise exactly the same amount in every situation but raising three times the pot every time you hold a big pair and raising less when you hold another hand you think is worth a raise is something any descent player will pick up on pretty quick.

You don't even have to be on the table long enough for people to see you do it since it's such a common mistake to overbet high pairs. If you overbet high pairs and the stacks is deep enough this is gonna lose you money unless you are a very good player after the flop. People will call your bets with hands they can flop hard with and a flopped set will take you down pretty hard because he knows exactly what cards he should be afraid of and you will probably lead the hand through. He won't pay you off any further if he doesn't flop hard. You might win a small amount of money the times someone make a loose call without hitting but mostly you will pick up the blinds. This is if your opponents are descent players. If they are really bad it doesn't really matter.

Just so you don't misunderstand me, off course the goal is to get the maximum amount of money in preflop, it's just the way of getting there I don't agree with. Another aspect. If the other guy can't read you for AA preflop he might re-raise you with QQ,JJ etc. and then your goal is achieved pretty easy to get your whole stack in preflop.

[dalecooper]

If you don't raise big hands more than any other, and you raise every hand you want to play, you will start getting 3-4 callers for every hand you raise, and your aces will get cracked a lot more than mine do. Frankly I don't think it's such a bad thing that people respect my pre-flop raises. Like I said, I will low raise or even limp a high pair under the right circumstances, but for the most part I am betting for two reasons: to get value out of my good starting hand, which happens whether they call me or fold; and to find out where I am, which happens if I am raised by another player holding a higher pocket pair. It doesn't bother me that people can "tell" when I'm playing QQ-AA. A single pair is not a great hand once the flop comes down. It's in my interests to take the pot without seeing a flop, at least half the time, and then take it on the flop without seeing a turn or river, the other half the time. People who slowplay and disguise their high pairs probably find themselves throwing a lot of money away calling to the river against someone who hit a lucky 2 pair or something.

[xbones]

You only want to take down blinds with AA? I'm willing to risk a bit more than that, and I want callers. If you don't want to see a flop with aces, what hand do you want to see a flop with. Don't let them see a cheap flop, I agree, but what's the point of taking down just a couple of bucks with the best hand at the time.

As has been said, aces will hold up 80ish% of the time heads up. So you need to maximise the winnings on the 80% to make up for the losses of the 20%.

[dalecooper]

You only want to take down blinds with AA? I'm willing to risk a bit more than that, and I want callers. If you don't want to see a flop with aces, what hand do you want to see a flop with.

Just blinds, no. I don't think I'm being clear enough (apparently). I have limped AA before with only one other person in just so I CAN see a flop against one other person. Usually if I am trying to steal it's not the blinds - it's the blinds plus a few limpers, or even better. For example here's a hand that came up just this morning: I get AA. The blinds are in and two people limp at .50 each. Then one guy raises to $1.00 and one more calls, so the pot is now 3.75. I raise it to $3.50 and everyone folds. My reasoning is that about half the time everyone will fold and I'll take a decent pot (approx. 8X BB) right there; the other half the time I'll get one caller and go to heads up play, at which point my next aim is to get him to fold on the flop, by betting whatever it takes, but ideally after he bets something (so I get some money out of him). Unless I get lucky and hit trip aces or something, in which case I might play it a little slower.

The size of the raise is not just determined by the aces. It's also determined by the size of the pot, the number of people in, the bets before me, and my position. If they all fold it doesn't bother me. But if I get one caller, that's better. That's what I'm after with kings or aces, pretty much every time I am dealt them, and I make the raise with that in mind.

[Bite]

If you don't raise big hands more than any other, and you raise every hand you want to play, you will start getting 3-4 callers for every hand you raise, and your aces will get cracked a lot more than mine do. Frankly I don't think it's such a bad thing that people respect my pre-flop raises. Like I said, I will low raise or even limp a high pair under the right circumstances, but for the most part I am betting for two reasons: to get value out of my good starting hand, which happens whether they call me or fold; and to find out where I am, which happens if I am raised by another player holding a higher pocket pair. It doesn't bother me that people can "tell" when I'm playing QQ-AA. A single pair is not a great hand once the flop comes down. It's in my interests to take the pot without seeing a flop, at least half the time, and then take it on the flop without seeing a turn or river, the other half the time. People who slowplay and disguise their high pairs probably find themselves throwing a lot of money away calling to the river against someone who hit a lucky 2 pair or something.

If you read my post again you will see that I'm not talking about slowplaying big pairs. I just pointed out the fact that you don't want them to know wether you hold a big pair or something else when you raise the pot preflop.

If it doesn't bother you whether they can tell when you are playing QQ-AA then you have a leak in your game. Off course you want to pick some pots uncontested but I would prefer it if I could pick pots up uncontested not only when I hold a strong hand which will be the case if you raise your big pairs much more than other hands.

I want value and I don't get value from my big hands when everybody folds preflop, and I want to be able to buy pots with hands that are not as strong and that will be impossible if people know I raise my high pairs much stronger than marginal hands. That's why I don't think giving such an obvious tell is good. Off course QQ-AA should be raised preflop. But so should many other hands from good position. I don't want my opponent to know which of it I hold.

And once again: This doesn't apply if the rest of the table are complete idiots that don't pick up on betting patterns.

[dalecooper]

And once again: This doesn't apply if the rest of the table are complete idiots that don't pick up on betting patterns.

This is actually a factor, since I play the fishiest tables I can find on Party. Against better players I do try harder to disguise my hands.

I don't think I have a bet that screams "he has aces!" except when the pot is already big pre-flop with a lot of people in. Then I absolutely want them to know my hand is strong. Why should I want five people with face cards and suited connectors seeing the flop with me? With less people limping in I might just give it my standard raise, 2-4X the big blind, to weed out a few weak hands and keep a couple decent ones. Again, it's all situational. My objective is the right number of callers for the strength of my hand. That means the bet amount can vary wildly.

[BILLABONG]

Um, guys?....Im not wondering how much to raise. Ive got all that taken care of as I also never raise the same amount. My raising simply depends on how many people is in the pot. Im wondering what hands to raise from what position with what amount of opponents in the pot already. For example im in late position with AJo. And there are three limpers before me. Do I muck? Do I call? Do I raise?

[Bite]

Um, guys?....Im not wondering how much to raise. Ive got all that taken care of as I also never raise the same amount. My raising simply depends on how many people is in the pot. Im wondering what hands to raise from what position with what amount of opponents in the pot already. For example im in late position with AJo. And there are three limpers before me. Do I muck? Do I call? Do I raise?

It's very hard to answer for NL/PL since it's much more situational than in fixed limit. Starting hand charts is mainly for fixed. If your opponents are very loose you can play a couple of more hands than usual as long as you still play tighter than they do. If they are very tight but especially weak (which not seems to be an issue on Party) then you should play a little loser than them. Be aggressive and pick up some pots. These opponents are not very profitable for any player (unless it's very short handed) and especially not for a new player so your best chance is to get to a looser table.

And just for the record: When I say you should raise all hands about the same I don't mean the exact amount! It's the amount compared to the pot size. With a lot of limpers you could add some extra bb to your raise. I simply mean you should not over address your high pairs because you get very easy to read. This is meant preflop. If you have anyone gotten involved in the hand you don't want reverse implied odds so then you might have to change your betting amount depending on what you have put your opponent on. But if in doubt: Raise pot. Is not a bad rule of thumb for a new player.

[bigred]

Um, guys?....Im not wondering how much to raise. Ive got all that taken care of as I also never raise the same amount. My raising simply depends on how many people is in the pot. Im wondering what hands to raise from what position with what amount of opponents in the pot already. For example im in late position with AJo. And there are three limpers before me. Do I muck? Do I call? Do I raise?

There's some articles at the beginning of the FTR page that can really help you on this. Honestly though, it really depends on positions, the atmosphere of the table, your stack (for tourney's) and then your cards. This will all come from experience. Play around on some tables, learn what works for you.

[Chicago_Kid]

Here are some standard betting patterns I've seen in NL games:

$50NL:
KK - If there is a small raise (~$2), and re-raise in front of me (~$4), and I have KK, I will reraise double what the last bet is (~$8-10). This will usually flush out AA, or get a caller from AK, AQ, or QQ, JJ, and sometimes TT. In terms of flushing out AA, I'd only throw away after an all-in to a very strong player. But the strong re-raise allows me to save money later if he does have bullets. Strong players will sometimes call with 99 or lower, so you have to use what you know about the raisers in front of you to determine what they might have if you see a flop. But it will limit the field for your pocket pair or big cards.
AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQs - If there is a small raise (~$4) in front and all fold to me on the button, I might limp in and try to get some value--particularly if the raiser is loose. If not loose, proceed with caution.
AA - If I raise (~$4), and someone re-raises strongly behind me (~$8), I will likely push in to force a bad play, or else take the money right there. But, if he's weak, I might re-raise a bit for value and see what he does.

So, as the experts have said, it truly depends on the table flow and the players left in the hand, and I mix up both betting and calling amounts depending on the action.

My experience is that the EV of big pocket pairs asnd big cards goes down quickly when you try to squeeze them too much for value preflop (a.k.a., don't raise enough). So, sometimes you need to just TAKE the $4 pot and not try to make it $12.

BTW--AJo and all those "tricky" hands, you are on your own.