The Mr. Hyde of ring games, that's me :(

[DrNoChance]

I'm a solid SnG player. I've played enough of these and followed my results long enough to know that I can beat the low stakes SnG game.

Recently, I've decided to milk deposit bonuses from the various poker sites. This, of course, requires one to play ring games to clear the deposit bonuses.

I've come to the conclusion that my ring game really, really, really stinks.

I'm not sure if anybody on this forum could possibly have this large a difference between their ring game/SnG skill levels. In theory, a good poker player should be a good poker player in either format.

Here's a list of my suspected ring game flaws:

1.) A tendency towards LAggy play the longer I sit at the table folding 74o over and over. This is fine in SnG play as the table gets shorthanded and the action gets forced. It's death at a ring table.

2.) Too many ill-advised bluffs. Bluffing/semi-bluffing works well when the action gets forced in a SnG and a bet basically puts an opponent to a descision to play a hand for all of their chips. It also works better against the weak/tight PokerSharks player base in general. It's death against loose/passive/calling stations that seem to populate many ring games at other sites.

3.) Too many loose calls. I don't know why I'm doing these. I don't do them in SnGs often at all. Maybe I'm looking for instant gratification? Win a pot at a ring table and it's instant +$$. Win a pot in a tourney and it's just one step closer to the goal of placing in the money. Myabe I'm more patient in SnGs.

Anybody else have these troubles with ring vs. SnGs? Were you able to overcome it with time?

[Toasty]

There are quiet a few players who can beat SnGs but can't beat ring games. Sounds like you have some monster leaks, but you know what they are and will have to overcome them to succeed.

Read my post here about 6max games, these could suit you better if you are playing too many hands. They are also perfect for clearing bonuses.

This is for Limit btw, if you are playing NL try sticking to Tyson's hand groupings (with the addition of the Pocket Pair of course ).

[mike4066]

Your not alone I went through the same thing. In SnG's people will fold hands to big bets, they won't in ring games.
On the same note some people can't play SnG's but crush the ring games.



my 2 favorite rules for low limit ring games..
#1 Don't bluff calling stations.
#2 They are all calling stations.



The following is something posted by EMan from UPF about building a bank roll. he makes some pretty obvious points that SnG players like myself might miss.
Hope it helps, I'm sure your smart enough to figure out whats important for your needs
********************
Heres my suggestions on how to build an online bankroll..

Without a doubt, the $25NL games on Party is the easyist way to build your bankroll without much risk.
Here are guidelines to follow to win at this game....
Im assuming you have about $250 to play with.
1) Game selection - look for a table where its not loaded with huge stacks. If you see more than three people with stacks of more than $50, dont bother. Look for a table where most have about $25 and lower.
2) Always buyin for the $25, If you drop below $20, Reload.
3) Be patient and wait for your hand. Youll make most of your money on high pocketpairs (QQ-AA) and flopped sets.
4) Call raises with any pocket pair if your opponent has a stack of at least 8 times the raise.
5) Dont overplay AK (if theres a raise and reraise preflop...dump it. If you raise a couple limpers and miss the flop, bet only if there are now draws on the flop...if you get called, dont spend another dime. If there are draws on the flop....check and fold...
7) Dont call allins with just Top pair Top kicker.
8) Dont pay off flush chasers if they hit..
9) Dont call raises without a pocketpair or AK.
10) Dont call an All in preflop without AA or KK
11) NEVER BLUFF.
11) Take notes on the bad players and look for them when you play again.
12) When you have a stack built up...around $75 and more....dont tangle with other big stacks... your not there to risk your big stack against another big stack...your there take money from the small stacks....
13) If a table is void of any "action"....leave. and find another table.
14) Never go on tilt...If you fall victim to a horrible beat.......BE happy,,<Be very happy.. Youve just found another fish...once your buddylist is full of fish....game selection is simple.

[TopThis]

It's death against loose/passive/calling stations that seem to populate many ring games at other sites.

I play almost 100% 6 person NL ring games. Targeting those types of players is the easiest money in this type of game imho.

Camp back and let them bully the table, when you get a hand, make your money off them.

[mike4066]

Actually i just remembered there was a post about the easist way to clear a deposit bonus.

I think the final answer was NL ring games using the kleptic.com starting guide. That would reduce your variance to a minimum.

[Toasty]

It would reduce your variance but you aren't going to be playing many hands and as such will be involved in less raked pots.

Limit 1/2 6max, I can clear a Party $100 bonus in 4 hours.

[DrNoChance]

#1 Don't bluff calling stations.
#2 They are all calling stations.

I'm going to say that over and over to myself like a mantra like 50 times before I sit at a ring table again

I need to become way more weak/tight to beat the loose/passives. It's time to leave my aggressive post-flop game behind for now.

Thanks for the feedback everybody.

[FyrFytr998]

I'm in the same boat you're in.

Last night I sit in at a ring game. Lose $20. I switch over to a SNG. I win 20 for 3rd place.

It just seems like there is a set mental pattern to playing I can follow at the SNG's, whereas at ring games it just goes awry all the time.

Go figure.

Wow! I just realized I'm now at Full House status!! Go Jason It's your Birthday!! :P

<----------------

[mike4066]

NP.


Most of people at these levels are going to call regardless of what you do. Play a straight forward game and save the check raises for people who are smart enough to recognize it. *hint* they aren't playing $25 nl

[Toasty]

hehe Saying that if I'm winning at SnGs I'm losing at Ring and if I'm winning at Ring i'm not placing in SnGs.

Occasionally I beat both on the same night but I think you need a certain mind set...

[xbones]

I'm the same as you there Toasty, I'm having a bad patch on the SnGs, but I'm making it on the ring games. A month ago it was completely the opposite way round.

[BoondockSaint]

my 2 favorite rules for low limit ring games..
#1 Don't bluff calling stations.
#2 They are all calling stations.

Ha that is great advice right there. #2 is excellent when you have a great hand. I remember once a dude called my brothers all in preflop with 53o on a $25 PP table. Just last week I had a dude call a $3 preflop raise with 97o when I was holding rockets and the flop was 942 2 suited and since 2 other people besides him called I just went all in straight up from early position and of course he called and lost everything. $3 with 97o come one HAHAHHAHAH man I was cracking up when I saw his hand.

I did get my AA busted by KK that same night when believe it or not it was a 3 way all in preflop and the 3rd guy was holding AT but the dude hit a K on 4th st and took the >80 pot away from me.

As far as me I have always been profitable in ring games but have hardly played any SnGs. Just like 5 maybe if that.

Key to ring games I believe is patience. Also I think a great thing to do is play at least 2 tables probably 3 at the same time and then you are seeing so many cards the odds of getting a long string of cold ones is extremely rare. That way you dont get bored with cold cards and find your self playing marginal hands. If you arent used to playing multi table start with 2 and within probably 20 minutes youll add a 3rd one and maybe a 4th. Good Skill!!!!!!!!!

[johnnyawe]

Mike, great rules. Thanks for putting them up here.

NoChance, check out the 6max games. You can play more hands and you can bluff.

[Fnord]

7) Dont call allins with just Top pair Top kicker.

...in an unraised pot.

11) Take notes on the bad players and look for them when you play again.

Better yet, take notes on the good players and avoid them. Bad players are a dime a dozen.

[mike4066]

7) Dont call allins with just Top pair Top kicker.

...in an unraised pot.

11) Take notes on the bad players and look for them when you play again.

Better yet, take notes on the good players and avoid them. Bad players are a dime a dozen.

Good edits there fnord

[DrNoChance]

I just had a nice 6 max NL session tonight. No horrid calls, a few questionable limps but overall fairly tight/moderately aggressive play.

The 6 max seems to feed me enough action to keep me from becoming too loose and trying to force the action.

Is it just the game I was in or are most 6 max NL players super loose? I felt like the freakin' table rock, and it's not like I consider myself particularly tight. Every single guy was an Axo, Kxs, Qxs, two face cards offsuit any position, suited 1-2 gappers any position kind of player. Which, of course, is fine with me.

What's an average % flops seen a good tight player normally has on 6 max NL?

[johnnyawe]

39%

[Toasty]

I'd say around 35% - 40% mark, it depends on how hot your cards are, also if you drop to 5 handed the BB alone will see 20% of the flops. Just play your cards and don't overly worry about the flop seens %.

[DrNoChance]

Hmmm. My cards were running cold most of the night, but I was probably closer to 30% flops seen.

My take on six handed is that I don't play any hands I wouldn't play 9-10 handed....but I'll play the marginal hands much more often (things like QJo/ATo/A8s look much better at a six handed table). I don't open limp a playable hand from the CO/BO, however there's always limpers in front of me so I'm often limping in behind with the marginal hands rather than raising. I sure can't fold QJo with position in an unraised pot 6 handed (considering the crap others are playing) but it doesn't exactly feel like a raising hand with limpers in front of my either. I hate limping too much, but at the same time I need to play more hands than I normally would and I can't justify raising many of these hands with limpers ahead of me. Perhaps I should be raising more pre-flop even with things like KJo/ATo if opponents are very loose and I have position?

It's so funny....in an SnG shorthanded I feel perfectly comfortable. Yet a six handed NL ring game finds me questioning my starting hand requirements and my pre-flop aggression. Go figure.

[xbones]

It's so funny....in an SnG shorthanded I feel perfectly comfortable. Yet a six handed NL ring game finds me questioning my starting hand requirements and my pre-flop aggression. Go figure.

I find the same, I think it's because short handed in SnGs, you tend to be happy with just a blind steal most of the time, but in a ring game, I always want more than just to steal the blinds.

[stevedonel]

I've been the same way up until recently. Very good SnG numbers, horrid ring game play.

It's so funny....in an SnG shorthanded I feel perfectly comfortable. Yet a six handed NL ring game finds me questioning my starting hand requirements and my pre-flop aggression. Go figure.

I think this about sums up my game until this week. I think it has something to do with losing $5 on a hand, where in the SnG its only a matter of losing a pot, that can be made back next hand. I seem to have found my own on the party 50¢/$1 limit talbes. I can now play hands the way I want to, with no fear of losing to the fish. Once my BR gets up over $250, I'll start mixing in the NL games. Im really looking forward to it.

[DrNoChance]

Bah, I just blew $100 yet again in one day playing ring. Screw this. Why bang my head against a brick wall? This obviously isn't my strength. I'm getting set up for plays by freakin' maniacs, bluffed out with garbage one hand only to call them down when they hold the pure nuts the next. I've had exactly one $100 rush at ring tables versus 5 #$%* -$100 sessions.

Don't mind me, I'm just blowing off steam. Goodbye ring games. I won't miss ya.

[BoondockSaint]

You playing $25 tables at party or where? Sorry to hear about the loss.

Last time I played there I lost 60 bucks in like not even 15 minutes and lost my whole stack on the very first hand which was QQ. Had a crazy dude calling big raises with A7s and we were both basically all in after the flop and he hit the ace to take me out. I hate losing my whole stack on the very first hand but it has happened a couple of times now.

But what did I do. I didnt quit. I was like the little engine that could and went chug a lug lug up the mountain and by the time I quit for the night I was up like 98.78 or something. If its not for you its not for you but dont lose faith in your skills at ring games so fast. Maybe just take a little break or something. Ive seen you play and know you are a good player. You probably just need some minor tweaking. The low stakes NL can get pretty crazy but anybody with some decent poker knowledge and a little practice I believe can beat em. Be very very selective about the hands you play. Playing multiple tables helps me loads with this for me. Patience poker bro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It will come.

[DrNoChance]

Yeah, I was pretty much on tilt last night when I posted my little rant there. I'll probably try to clear one or two more bonus deposits on sites, at least the bonus is absorbing some of my losses.

I definitely play better against a certain type of player than others. I've played so many SnGs now at PokerSharks that my game has become tailored to destroying weak/tights. It's very hard to not pull the trigger post-flop and back up your pre-flop raises when you miss but a bluffable flop comes, yet there dummies call you down with 22 or ace high. Of course, you just adjust and value bet these dummies to death.

I should have left the table I was at last night. I was starting to tilt, and knew it. You never knew where you were at in a hand, with people check raising with nothing, raising with nothing, etc. Cards went cold, and when I did get a hand I got shoved off it. In a SnG, it's a piece of cake for me to let go of a hand when I know it's beat. I have so much more trouble doing this at a ring table for no reason that I can explain. Perhaps frustration sets in from getting nothing but cold cards (and you can't force the action against calling stations who don't even notice you've been a rock for the past hour) and then when I hit 2 pr/set/top pr and some chaser hits his Str8/flush I just can't believe my bad luck and end up paying them off. The end of last night's session was brutal and embarrasing. I had two pair on a board that may as well have had a neon sign saying "Two pair is no good here" and yet I called some schlub's all-in.

It's frustrating when you are a good enough player to clearly identify most of your leaks and yet you keep letting them happen.

Oh well, back to the grind....I've got a bonus to clear.

[stuck]

I've been playing mostly limit ring games this past week (up quite a bit, too (though that could be due to the upside of variance )), and I decided to join a NL ring game again. I think the week in limit has for some reason helped my NL play - I found myself making much better calls and plays than I was before.

[DrNoChance]

Wow, the trend continues. Another almost -$100 session. This is for sure the worst stretch of luck I've ever had combined with the worst stetch of poker I've ever played. If I could just go back and undo a handful of horrid loose calls....

It makes no sense that I make these fishy calls at a ring table that I'd never do at a SnG. Oh well, I'll plug that leak or lose my bankroll trying.

[Toasty]

drop down a level until you get them fixed

[DrNoChance]

drop down a level until you get them fixed

There is no lower level at RV that counts as raked hands, although that doesn't mean I couldn't drop down anyways. It suppose it's time to swallow my pride and do it.....

[dalecooper]

Low limit online ring games have been death for me too. I play so much better in no limit and/or live games. For some reason I get exactly like you are describing, pissing money away on calls I know I shouldn't make and trying to bluff the unbluffable. Unfortunately the one or two times per session that I successfully steal a small pot tend to make me bluff at bigger pots (and more people in them) when I know I'm bound to get called by at least one or two players.

Like you I know my leaks but I can't seem to stop doing it. Something about the games and the format makes me just keep clicking those call and raise buttons. In live NL games I'm tight/aggressive and pretty much always place in the money; online ring games like those just suck money out of me. Which is why I just swore them off this morning.

[!Luck]

When i first started i made a most of my money on ring games then went on to lose almost half of my bankroll on them. Switched to 10 sng and i tend to do well. If i had more time i would play those more. Anyways back on topic. I remeber the last time i was playing in 50 hands my flop seen was 6%!!!!!. that is in 10 person pl 25 party. I was getting so much crap and all my blinds where raised so i could never see a flop. Eventually i went on tilt and lost on kk vs a7 preflop( i had a small stack 5). All i can say is that i know your pain.